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Old 29-01-2015, 12:41   #46
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
This is a personal bias, but walk through transoms do not belong on ocean going monohulls, so that would eliminate, sight unseen, any boat without a bridge deck to stop the ingress when you get pooped. IMO, duck boards alone are not enough. It won't happen often, but we knew a boat that was lost with all hands from that, and that's one mistake i'm happy to learn from.

Ann
Interesting Ann. I have a Sceptre 41 with a duck board. I feel that they are safer in the sense that the water comes out a lot faster then thru the drains. As long as the companion way step is higher then the bottom of the transom there is not much worry about water getting down below. I guess it would be a math calculation to see how much area is in the cockpit that could fill with water and how much that weighed and how quickly it would flow out.
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Old 29-01-2015, 12:44   #47
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Having been an owner of a C&C37/40XL for 13 years, and having sailed on C&C 41 during that time, and evaluated the C&C 44, I can make some general observations.

The "Plus" and XL versions of the C&C 37/40 are very similar in layout to the C&C 44. The 44 is a beast - it's big, and I would have a hard time imagining single-handing her as I've done countless times on my 37/40XL. Also, the 44's are a lot older. The 37/40's are about 20 years old and the 44's were mostly finished off in the late 1980's. If you want big, or are going to spend a lot of time offshore, there's nothing wrong with a 44, but they are a lot to handle (and more expensive to keep and maintain, obviously).

The 41 is a great boat. Again, it's older than the 37/40 vintage, so the upkeep/replacement of parts costs will be higher (although the purchase price may compensate you for that). The one I've sailed on is 1984 vintage and is set-up mostly like a racer - cockpit-wise and accommodation-wise. Straight bench berths in the salon (and one pilot berth), vee-berth forward, and quarter berth (which on my friends boat just accumulates everything and isn't used for sleeping). The boat can be raced or cruised, but I tend to view the 41 as more of a racer, especially in the cockpit. My opinion.

Having looked at those two options, we decided on a later-model (1993) C&C 37/40XL. We liked the XL, because it had the cabin accommodations of the "plus", with the lighter and taller racing rig of the "R" version. We wanted to be competitive in PHRF club racing (and we were), but also have a very livable boat. The centerline queen, the large head and separate shower, the large nav station and pass-thru to the Vee-berth were pluses. Ours sported a winged-keel at 5'11", and Rob Ball did a great job designing that. We had excellent upwind performance. We sailed in the Great Lakes and Mid-Atlantic and just couldn't tolerate the deep-keeled versions (7'3" and 8'3"). The step thru/fold down transom is very handy, not only for swimming and dinghy access, but doing maintenance on the back of the boat when it's in the water. The large rudder (not skeg hung), spins the boat on dime. It is a sweet-sailing boat, but a little tender (at about 17,000lbs. set-up for cruising), upwind in waves, as it has a flatter entry. That said, we sailed her through 8 and 10 footers with ease, and typically it was just my wife and I.

None of these boats are great long range boats due to tankage. But if your intent is to cruise the coasts mostly, there should be no issues. The 37/40 and 41 should have a steaming range of around 250 miles. The 37/40 carries 90-100 gallons of water.

Due to the inability of many people to sell the "R" racing versions of these boats, the prices on the "plus" and XL's are way below the value of the boats (IMO). You should be able to get a great deal on a 37/40 plus or XL.

I'm happy to answer any of your questions directly. As of this writing, my 1993 is still for sale with a broker, and is one sweet boat. zfletch84@gmail.com
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Old 29-01-2015, 13:48   #48
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Steady's right. These three criteria in and of themselves begin to answer your question.

3 people is 50%more than two. I don't know the layout of any of the three boats, but personal "space" becomes important.

Where you go and type of cruising MAKES A HUGE difference. An Atlantic crossing to the UK is quite different than going to the Bahamas. UK: closed transom, for example, Bahamas walk through is great for the dinghy.

Anchoring gear was mentioned. If you're marina hopping, gee, ya think anchoring would be at the top of your list? If anchoring out, it just might be.

Another example: some have said bigger is more expensive. I have also heard that small gets real old real quick.

See the pattern here?

Being argumentative when receiving replies that note that your limitations are unreasonable doesn't help either.

Good luck.
Forums seem to make everyone behave very oddly. Did you think I was being argumentative?

Basically I live in Vancouver and will be sailing the PNW, all very protected waters in gulf islands, San Juans, Desolation sound. Crossing the Georgia straight will be the worst of it, eventually going to Haida Gwai and maybe going around Vancouver Island.

The past 4 decades I think have proven that these C&C boats are excellent cruisers for this purpose. Although many of them have gone to Hawaii as well.

Why can't we ever just simplify the conversation without everyong wanting to pull the other criteria in. Can't you just assume I have those bits covered and simply want opinions on the three boats?
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Old 29-01-2015, 13:49   #49
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Great post @ztsf

I will email you some questions.
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Old 29-01-2015, 15:12   #50
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Although its not clear what your intentions are, boat sizes project primarily coastal cruising.

1. Smallest boat you can live with = reduced maintenance + costs
2. Big fan of protected skeg rudder but how much sailing will you actually do cruising coasts vs blue water?
3. Uneasy about open transom in blue water despite the view of equally high rates of influx and egress...

Primarily Coastal cruising = 37
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Old 29-01-2015, 16:19   #51
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

I vote for the C&C 37/40XL Love the layout, great looks, can't think of what's not to like!!!!
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Old 29-01-2015, 16:21   #52
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

The timing of this post is rather poinient, as I'm rather interested in one of these boats, but... by virtue of what I'm sure is an unintended error, the poll is a bit of a trick question. I say this, as the 37/40 is actually a 40'er, or 6" (15cm) shy there of anyway.
So there's a lot less difference from stem to stern between the boats than meets the eye, and or wallet. And FYI, I've 0 experience with the 44', so I won't be making any references to her.
- Also, my apologies in advance for this eval's length, but I figured if it was worth doing, the it's worth doing well.

I've raced on the 41', & she can take a crew of monkeys, or rather gorilla's (for a boat her size as compared to other 40's), both to keep her flat, & to do any sail handling chores aboard. Especially when kites are involved (plus those dang, pesky, baby stay things). That, & while her handling isn't as nasty as some IOR'ish boats, she can require a lot of helm to keep her under control simply when flying just a big jib, & main.

Where as, I'm guessing, that here newer stable mate (designed to/in conjunction with) a newer, saner set of racing rules, should both be easier to handle, as well as sail a bit flatter. Although having not sailed on one, I can't say with certainty. But her lines & form shape speak to as much (architecturally, as it were).

Ah, & a tip. I'd wager a C-note (or more) that there's about enough Kevlar in the hull of the 37/40 to make a set of king sized sheets, 2 sets at most.
It's a Yuppie selling Buzzword/material. As to put enough of it into a hull to make a real difference strength & impact resistance wise, would triple the cost of the hull (easily) - NO JOKE!

The 41's deck, especially forward of the mast, is a lot handier as an LZ for a dink (or lounging). And aft of the mast, the companionway on the 37/40 is essentially that of a center cockpit vessel. In terms of location, plus vertical drop. So the space, topside, on the newer design is more chopped up & less usable. Albeit it offers better natural lighting belowdecks.

The catch(es). The 37/40 has a far smaller cockpit (from what's visible anyway). Where as the 41's great for lounging, and or entertaining.
I celebrated the big 30 on a 41', with my GF, my best mates, hers, & all of their SO's. LOTS of room, topsides & below. Ditto on galley capacity & layout being sufficient to entertain for 2 or 12 (if you've a bit o' talent).

For cruising, even if one were to build in a permanent ladder or steps into the transom, the 41' still gets the thumbs down when it comes to boarding from a dink, or the water, as compared to a boat purpose designed for such (the 37/40).
Though, I HIGHLY value Ann T. Cate's opinions, I'm also jaded in that I've got enough ocean racing miles for a few trips to the Moon. Much of that time in oversized dinghy's by most standards. A good percentage of said boats being open transomed... though, also, I'm the guy whom you also see installing 2 separate types of locking systems for hatch boards, & hatches (I learned early, in the N. Atlantic).
Albeit, the hatch on the 37/40 is high enough, vertically, & small enough, that there's not a lot of room for a sea to dump huge amounts inside that way. Elevation wise, it's 4.5' above the DWL, & the opening isn't 1' high.

For my $, I'd take the newest model. Albeit with some upgrades to tankage, ground tackle (& stowage for same), stern gate, & likely a full on cockpit rebuild. Including a better designed bridgedeck, mainsheet position & layout, seating, & a few other things. A perk of owning Real tools since age 3.
Speed with a minimum of fuss is a BIG perk in my book. Guess it's a youth thing.

Some of the mod's too, when I could swing'em would include at least a fixed windshield, if not hard dodger, & moving the wheel forward to where it was under the protection of such (which might mean a smaller wheel).

In terms of deck & hatch protection, between the two, the 41' wins definitively when it comes to ease of adding a dodger, from what I can see. Not a small thing. Especially if you're one to sit in the companionway, & drive with the AP remote... when it's truly foul.
A VERY handy trick, if the boat's laid out so that you can pull it off (including reaching the trimming controls too).

Even better if you can do the same, via driving by hand in the same conditions, while fully shielded by the dodger (hopefully acrylic, carbon fiber, epoxy, & corecell). Then, if you can pull that off, the crew's level of discomfort & drainedness declines greatly. Not a small thing.... kind of a deal maker/breaker really. And one that can only really be assessed by trying out all of the boats in question.

PS: And yeah, the draft thing's a PITA. Maybe enough to call in a favor or 3, & fire up the DIY foundry, & my chainsaw. Wouldn't be the 1st time.
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Old 29-01-2015, 20:31   #53
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Live the post @uncivilized

Great information and thoughts.

I don't think the draft is much of an issue in my region. In 8 years of my powerboat with a 3' draft I am not sure I even got in less than 10' of water.

It's generally nice and deep in the PNW but would love to hear opinions to the contrary if they are out there.



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Old 29-01-2015, 21:48   #54
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

The 37+....it's the only one whose interior doesn't look like it belongs to Kitt from Knight Rider!

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Old 30-01-2015, 01:17   #55
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Cruising translates to prolonged time on board.
The more space the more comfort
A bigger is also more comfortable while navigating

The rest is question of budget
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Old 30-01-2015, 05:36   #56
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Post Re: Cast a vote on three boats

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Originally Posted by westsail374 View Post
Sorry, can't provide feedback. Do not regard C&C as suitable for blue water.

Others have strong feelings to contrary. Good on ya.

Best of luck with whatever boat you end up with.

There's definitely some validity to this, particularly given some of the things I've read about regarding C&C keels, +keel floors since my other post. Some of it, for me anyway, is the kind of thing which necessitates some in depth, eyes & hands on, analysis. Other bits are likely just some of those trade offs of one type or another, AKA, things which on varying subjects, are present in all vessels.

I will say that some of what I've run across makes me want to learn more about how they attach their keels. Plus who does the math, & how, in terms of those structural attachments.
Thus far, since my earlier post, it seems like there are a lot of aftermarket strengthening mod's which are fairly common regarding these attachments. Though that's about as far as I've gotten in my studies. Albeit, it doesn't give a fella' a warm, fuzzy feeling. Especially as, if some of those major connections are in question, then what else unseen may or may not be lurking.

Yes, such is speculation. Thus my figuring to do some more research on the issue. Up to & including querying the builder & designer, needs be (to get non-2nd hand, or 3rd hand, information. But then, of course, the flipside's that no boat's perfect....

If I find anything of substance, odds are it's a topic for a new thread. The above isn't what the OP was asking us to make commentaries on.
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:10   #57
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

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Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
Cruising translates to prolonged time on board.
The more space the more comfort
A bigger is also more comfortable while navigating

The rest is question of budget
Theoretically speaking, much of this is true, but... if the space isn't laid out ergonomically in terms of;
- ease, & efficiency of use (at sea, in port, & at anchor)
- practicality, layout & feature wise (ditto on the when/where bit as above)
- ease of upkeep in general, plus system accessibility for maint. & or upgrades
- real world comfort of the spaces aboard, under any & all conditions & circumstances

For example, a bridgedeck need only be high enough to keep out all but the most ominous of projected waves to be encountered. If it's far higher, thus making the crew go through a lot more gyrations & acrobatics (while heavily clad in oilskins, warm layers, & safety gear). Then said feature, on balance, may be a liability. From the standpoint of having the crew perched on said deck features, & companionway ladders in the midst of both severe (and non heinous) weather. Such that it overly tires them out, impairing their judgment for this task, & other critical ones, like navigating, & analyzing the weather etc. Then on balance, I'd say that said design feature would be more of a liability than a benefit. Especially if climbing over it/using it, puts them more in harms way, or say, increases the wrist for turning/spraining an ankle, or getting pitched to the end of their tether due to being awkwardly positioned.

Also, is there a good seat (which is easy to brace into, especially while donning or doffing foulies) near the base of the companionway where folks can suit up for the weather & vice versa? Does it include (an easily maintainable) grating for water drainage off of said gear? And is there a genuine drying locker within arms reach, in which to stow this gear. Again, is it also a space which is easy to take care of the upkeep on?
If not, then this piece of real estate on the vessel, could be a negative one.

Such are just examples as to some of the kinds of question which need asking, concerning space & features on a cruising boat. Bigger, for certain, isn't necessarily better. It can easily be the opposite.
Usually the best way to solve problems onboard is via thinking, not so much necessarily by adding features (or size) which will cost more in terms of $, & labor... to build, & to keep in good, well maintained condition.
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:55   #58
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

I've sailed on all three, and on a purely emotional level I'd take the 44 simply because it's the fastest, lol.

I have a friend who races his 41 single-handed to Bermuda, so it's manageable if set up properly. It's a hard boat to sail to it's rating but when it goes, it really goes. Outstanding performance upwind and surprisingly slick in light wind.

The 37/40 is a nice boat but feels a little cramped for some reason.

All that said, I would not buy any of the three unless racing the boat was in the future.

Anne, how do you know that the open transom was responsible for the loss of the boat you mentioned when all hands were lost?
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Old 30-01-2015, 11:50   #59
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

@suijin

See wow that is an interesting comment for me to consider.

As I do not plan on racing but just cruising.

Still I can't seem to find better value than say a c&c 41 in the under 75k category. Also considering 40-42 the min size requirement because of the size of my family.

I have found a Catalina 43 in that range but it just doesn't speak to me the same way.


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Old 30-01-2015, 13:03   #60
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Re: Cast a vote on three boats

Whatever boat you buy, you're gonna need a dingy. I'll sell you my C&C 30 that you can tow behind your boat.

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