Can't Wing-and-Wing on a Hunter ?

[savoir]

Originally Posted by shorebird

Thanks for all the prompt and informative replies. As always, there are a number of options, depending on the wind and sea conditions. Rigging a gybe preventer and whisker pole sounds like a good option for long runs, broad reaching for shorter runs with maneuvering room, and perhaps dousing the genny for shorter runs in a narrower waterway. I would consider dousing the main if the run was ending at the destination, since our genny is considerably larger. Paul, nice shot of your boat. Are you going to clear the upcoming bridge?
cheers,
david

"The problem with quotes on the internet is the difficulty in verifying its authenticity as well as crediting its source"
Abraham Lincoln

Are you telling us that you have been sailing downwind with no pole at all on the jib ?

[gello]

had a hunter 34 for a while.
you can go wing on wing with a B&R rig without a pole
(i've run 45,000 miles on my current non-hunter boat and had no idea i couldn't
go wing on wing without a pole. geez, learned something. i have a pole
but it is such a hassle i only use it in rough seas with lite air without the spinnaker).

preventing the main (both directions, fore and aft) works,
or you can sail off a few degrees and gybe downwind which the boat really likes,
or,
as odd as this sounds, reef the main down.
This keeps it off the shrouds for the most part, gives the genny a bit of clean air,
and importantly; takes some strain off the backstay (or in your case with no
backstay, whatever holds the stick up). Despite some of the more denigrating comments here, a hunter is a fun boat and will sail in a dog fart of wind.
had a great time in my hunter wing on wing or on the wind in light air wheras now
i just park my 28,000 lb keelboat and dream of the tradewinds again.

in any case, the steering on that boat is so responsive it takes a steady hand
and an eye to the yaw moment of the seas.

have fun.

gello

[ohanasailing]

At some point you might also consider using an MPS or asymmetrical spinnaker for h downwind sailing. In this particular case you can use a sail with a larger area designed for downwind sailing without the need for a whisker pole. And enjoy greater speeds along wita new challenge. Depending on what coast you are on you can try either Minney's (West Coast) or Bacon's (east coast) to obtain a used sail to play around with at a fraction of the cost of a new sail.

[boatman61]

I tend to run slightly of the wind as well.... less rolly

[colemj]

Originally Posted by roverhi

You can't run wing and without poling out the headsail no matter what boat you've got.

Catamarans and Trimarans can do this readily and easily. Boats of any type with a Camberspar jib (Freedom's, for example) have no problem wing and wing.

Mark

[Blue Stocking]

What was Hunter's thinking, behind eliminating the backstay?
The larger roached main, I understand, does not give much greater performance on the wind than a backstayed rig, and we are discussing that it limits downwind possibilities as well.
I have friends with 38s and 41, or 42ft boats , which I think are really great.

[sailorboy1]

You know that Hunter is in the business to sell boats. There's lots of bad mouthing the B&R rig, but if it was really a negative it would effect sales and they would get rid of it.

Coming from my older "standard" rigged Cal-39 to my Hunter 410 I find the sail plan easier to handle. Yes can not go wing on wing very well, but only did this for maybe 3 miles every few weeks before so it isn't much of a loss to my sailing time.

In fact I think in the past I would go wing on wing for the picture opportunity because it looks cool, not because it was helping me get somewhere faster.

What percentage of time are others sailing wing on wing to be so concerned about it?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

What percentage of time are others sailing wing on wing to be so concerned about it?

Don, I can't speak for others, but we have done thousands of miles wing and wing with a poled out headsail. This has been first on Insatiable I which was a typical old IOR rig (big headsail, small main) and now on I-two which has a fractional rig with swept-back spreaders, a very big mains'l (and a light topmast backstay for bending the mast), a rig not unlike yours.

We use a standard spinnaker pole on our 120 % genoa, and will carry this arrangement from DDW to around 110 degrees apparent. In typical tradewind passages this gives us near hull speed in anything over about 15 knots true, so the advantages of gybing downwind are small. Further, in order to keep the genoa full by heading up (without the pole) we find we need to come all the way up to about 140 deg apparent, and that is a longish way off course.

We can't ease the main very far because of the spreaders and this increases the chance for an accidental gybe, so we have permanently rigged preventer/vangs on both sides, and don't worry about the occasional gybe for it will soon gybe back with no harm done.

So, it's fair to say that not being able to pole out the head sail would seriously cramp our proven (to us) downwind methodology.

YMMV as always.

Cheers,

Jim

[Paul Elliott]

VALIS can sail wing and wing without using a pole, but only on fairly flat water. I do this on short downwind legs, where hooking up the whisker pole would be a hassle, and I accept the fact that the genoa will occasionally collapse unless I am paying extremely close attention to the windshifts.

The pole also helps in very light air, where otherwise the jib would just be hanging there, pulled down by its own weight.

Jibing downwind from one broad reach to the other is faster, unless the wind is strong enough that you are hull-speed limited (some boats get up and surf at this point, but VALIS doesn't). In strong winds, we make better VMG just pointing the bow at our destination. If that's dead downwind we run wing and wing, or put up one of the symmetrical spinnakers, or fly poled-out twin headsails (here's a link to a photo sequence showing VALIS under twin genoas: VALIS)

Asymmetrical spinnakers are great, and I occasionally use one, but they aren't that good for dead-downwind. As has been mentioned, partially reefing the main will let some air into the headsails when running DDW -- genoa or asym.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

.

So, it's fair to say that not being able to pole out the head sail would seriously cramp our proven (to us) downwind methodology.


Jim

I agree a pole is a plus and it's on my upgrade list. I don't know if for my Hunter with the 115% head sail and big main it is going to help a lot. But for my spinnaker it will be a great help.

I do plan on rigging preventers this off season. But not really for wing-on-wing but for reaching deep and rougher conditions.

I think the thing is that you learn to sail your boat the best you can given the boat's setup.

As I have said I can sail my B&R rig wing-on-wing, but sea state is the controlling factor for doing so. If in doubt I sail the boat best to take into account VMG and not to setup a potential damage.

There's no prefect sail confirmations for a short handed cruiser wh isn't going to have 6 different sails available.

[s/v Beth]

Jim's and gello's advice are the only one's that really make sense to me. Guess I have to get the permanently rigged preventers. I ran wing on wing with no pole or preventer for a while last week, and I too had difficulty keeping the jib open without the pole. However, if I put on a preventer that should give me just enough to run 5-10 degrees on one side and keep the jib completely full without the pole. I will try taking down the main abit too- that is a jewel. Question for you:
I am sure you know what a Twistle rig is, can you run the equivalant by rigging you yankee on one side to the tiller, and the main (with a semi- loose preventer) on the other side? A simple system which may provide self steering downwind (the most difficult point of sail for self steering mechanisms).
Bottom line- I want the self steering of the twistle rig, but don't want to make another sail (groan).

[nes]

I have a Hunter 326, I sail in San Diego Bay. There are many times that I sail WOW straight down the bay. It may be that it is harder than in some other boats, but this is my boat, and I wanted to learn how to do it. Which is to say, yes it can be done, but it takes work.
When we chartered in the BVI on a Beneteau 473, we were able to WOW for about an hour. Compared to our boat it was easier, but still a bit of a pain. It did make for some fantastic pictures!

[savoir]

Why not try out an adjustable whisker pole ? With one of those you can pole out a jib of any size plus a gennaker. You say that you don't want a spinnaker so you won't need the extra strength of a proper spinnaker pole.

If you don't want a pole then try sheeting from the toe rail. Clip on a snatch block about 2 - 3 feet forward of the usual sheeting position and run a line outwards through the block, outside the lifelines and up to the clew.

[s/v Beth]

I have a whisker pole and I plan on using it. I guess I was clear as mud in my question Or maybe you were refusing to be diverted from the OP. I just want to know if you can self steer wing on wing like a twizzle rig.