Canadian-Built Bluewater Boats ? Headroom ?

[canucksailor]

If you are in Ontario, there is a Corbin 39 for sale in Penentaguishene:

Don't know that particular boat, but do know Jack Pady and you can trust him to be honest. Good man in the business.

[Boulter]

Originally Posted by sck5

Gozzard makes really nice boats. Expensive and laid out in a clever but somewhat peculiar way, but Canadian.

By the way, why Canadian only? They make some excellent boats but with NAFTA it shouldnt make any difference if it is US or Canadian built

Hi:

I asked about Canadian specifically because they are more likely to be around here than say a Tayana 37, and they don't show up in the stack of US books I have here - hard info is scarcer. I am not married to the idea of a Canadian boat, just trying to get on an equal information footing and avoid straying too far from home as I sniff about.

Boulter

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by capnsvtl

I am the webmaster of the Spencer Yachts website. (And brand new to this forum) I believe the headroom on a 35 is about 6'. I have a Spencer1330 and the headroom is between 6'5 and 6'3. (I am 6'3" myself)

If you care to hear my very biased opinion, Spencer's are very heavily built and at the same time are "dry" & have a very lovely motion through the water. Despite the design and most of the boats being built over 40 years ago, a Spencer 35 won the Single Handed Trans PAC a few years back.

Welcome aboard CF!
Personally, I think it'd be great if you started a thread that gives info. about the Spencers, past & present. I understand that the company is under new ownership? I'm a big fan, in fact, I was about to make an offer on "SEAWYF" when she sold.
Mike

[highseas]

I love my Hughes 38,it got me to Mexico no problem.I now know why Capn. Fatty likes his so much.Headroom is about 6'3",I'm 6'2" . I sailed a Spencer 31 as a kid.Last winter in Barra de Navidad this guy I met had a (1974?)Spencer 42 he had just finished restoring,WOW!

[Boulter]

Hi:

Well my wife and I went to Kingston today to view some boats.

CS36 -If I really straighten up, my head is on the ceiling.
Alberg 35 - I am clear down the centre.
Niagara 35- a hair less clearance than the CS 36.
C&C 39 Landfall - ALL CLEAR
Aloah 34 was AWOL, so still don't know how I fit on this one.

My wife really liked the C&C landfall in terms of spaciousness, and two independant cabins with heads. She likes the privacy aspect if we go cruising with friends for a few days. I liked it well enough too, I mean, it is the only boat with more than an inch above my head. The only obvious issue is the $$$. Also John Neal of an outfit called Mahina Expeditions perhaps takes exception with it being a bluewater boat, but he doesn't specifically say what are its deficiencies. "Twenty Affordable Sailboats to Take You Anywhere ... (cross out C&C Landfall ... shouldn't be on the list)"

I liked the way the Niagara had the head at the back of the boat. Don't have to do the length of the boat to have a leak, and it can be used as a modest wet locker when you come in from nasty weather. I could live with the almost head room.

I liked the Alberg 35 well enough too, but with only 7 ever made, it is a bit of an orphan.

Of course, both the Niagara and the Alberg would have zero privacy with friends aboard.

So even though the C&C might be a dubious bluewater candidate, and it is more $$$ than I had hoped for, it is a contender. Probably best to keep my wife happy. And besides, for every 100 who talk about bluewater sailing, 99 never go anywhere. Two or three months into this interest (obsession?!) there is yet no reason to believe I will be the 1 who actually goes. I could have alot of fun for very many years just tooling around the great lakes with friends and family, with maybe an excursion out to the Atlantic provinces.

That is my report for today.

Boulter

[S/V Alchemy]

I would imagine the issue with John Neal is the cored deck with crappy backing, the bane of most C&Cs. The Landfall's a solid boat, but recoring and remediation of the deck is a big, messy job. Pay $700 for a survey and knock off $15K off the price when they find wet decks and see if you still like it.

Bluewater usually means "Caribbean". Plan accordingly with your ventilation needs.

Also, sod the "friends". If you are invited aboard a small yacht, it must be in full knowledge that it's not a hotel. You buy a boat for the sailing, not the hosting, unless it's a frickin' dock queen.

[sabray]

Just a pisser on the friends privacy thing. Buy a boat you 2 will enjoy not one your friends will enjoy a few days your going to own it. Lots of people ask
Me how many will it sleep? Uhhh 8 but I think I wouldn't want 8 people on this boat for more then a day. there are lots if places for 8 people to sleep though they could do it here I would really like them to sleep somewhere else.

[Boulter]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I would imagine the issue with John Neal is the cored deck with crappy backing, the bane of most C&Cs. The Landfall's a solid boat, but recoring and remediation of the deck is a big, messy job. Pay $700 for a survey and knock off $15K off the price when they find wet decks and see if you still like it.

Bluewater usually means "Caribbean". Plan accordingly with your ventilation needs.

Also, sod the "friends". If you are invited aboard a small yacht, it must be in full knowledge that it's not a hotel. You buy a boat for the sailing, not the hosting, unless it's a frickin' dock queen.

The boat actually was surveyed in the spring and deck core issues were found. The deal at the time was not consumated and the current owners are having the work done.

I am more concerned with hull cores. A problem area on the deck I can hack out and take care of myself. I have built forms and made GRP parts. Messy *hit and I wouldn't want to do it for a living, but doable occasionally. In the hull, I have to get a haul out and work upside down, a whole other class of misery. Until yesterday I thought this boat was solid hull, but apparently I am mistaken. "Cored from the gunnels to 18 inches above the keel". I suppose that is above the waterline, so perhaps not so bad.

I could perhaps share your attitude WRT friends, but I have to live with my wife.

Boulter

[S/V Alchemy]

You should be concerned with hull cores. The moisture meter will reveal all, by which I mean if it reveals any, walk rapidly away.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by Boulter

Niagara 35- a hair less clearance than the CS 36.
...

I liked the way the Niagara had the head at the back of the boat. Don't have to do the length of the boat to have a leak, and it can be used as a modest wet locker when you come in from nasty weather. I could live with the almost head room.

...

Of course, both the Niagara and the Alberg would have zero privacy with friends aboard.

...

Boulter

As a somewhat biased Niagara 35 owner, let me give you some thoughts on your comments. We bought ours in September for roughly the same types of trips you're thinking of. We absolutely love it. It's built beautifully, sails well, and is considerably cheaper than it should be because many people think it's weird that you walk down the companionway into a bulkhead. The unusual (and genius) layout drives the price down, so we could afford much more boat. It's a win-win since we really want that layout.

Headroom: I also brush the ceiling. I don't find this an issue at all. I'm used to simply having bad posture in sailboats, and it's not like I'm stooped way over. I have room where I need it. I do bash my head very hard and often on the doorjamb between the galley and aft cabin, though. If I could just learn to duck in that one place, I'd be all good.

The galley and head arrangement is good for all sorts of reasons. You get more overall room in the boat with no v-berth and it feels huge when you open all the doors and you can see from one end of the boat to the other. It feels bigger than it is. The galley sink is on centerline so it doesn't fill on either tack, and the galley configuration makes it easy to wedge in and cook without needing a harness. The head is closer to the center of the boat instead of the bow, so you don't need a seatbelt to use it in heavy seas.

Note that this also means that you do in fact have two cabins. When you close all the doors, the salon converts one cabin, and the aft section to another. Total privacy with a shared head that you don't have to walk past other people to get to, all in a 35' boat. This also means that at sea you can use the benches as sea berths and you have a warm, lit up, living section forward and a separate wet, red lit, open to the outside area aft with the nav station and access to the head without taking your foul weather gear off or tracking sea water through the boat and waking everyone up.

The Niagara 35 was designed as a bluewater cruiser for a couple, and it excels at that. Many have been around the world, and it is very well respected as an offshore cruiser.

It does have a cored hull, and I consider that to be a big advantage. This gives it a light, stiff hull with good insulation. Hinterhoeller is known for excellent build quality, and you just don't hear of wet hulls. I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but I sure wouldn't base a decision on the hull being cored.

post or pm me if you have any other questions.

Chris

[Boulter]

Well it has been a couple of weeks since I last checked in here.

The brokers Kingston way are looking like duds. I asked to spend a day with the owner of the C&C Landfall 39 and they came back with a we don’t do it that way. Let’s dig out the exact quote ...

"Having said that, we make an orientation meeting, sea trial, survey and mechanical inspection all part of an offer to purchase. This process works well and will give evidence of commitment from both the owner and the purchaser."

I take the above to be an invitation to offer to purchase without understanding what it is I am buying, something I’d rather not do. So I gave them the benefit of the doubt and asked for a copy of a buy/sell agreement, figuring the process is like buying a house and the starting point is usually a standard contract that is modified to fit the particular deal. I never heard back. Maybe my wife and I don’t look wealthy enough.

Surely I am not unreasonable here, am I, in asking to study the terms of a standard contract? If I am expected to make an offer on a boat without having the full information in front of me, surely I should be able to read and understand the standard weasel words than can get me out of the deal? Maybe they are on vacation or something, but it has been 2 weeks now since my last communication.

So another 20 pounds of sailing books arrived from Chapters, and I have been reading onwards and upwards. Been reading on this and other forums too, and watching what shows up for sale.

Sometime in the last week, I find my self falling for a Whitby 42. Not necessarily a particular one, but the 42s in general. They have the same basic layout and headroom (maybe more? I saw 6'6" somewhere) as the C&C Landfall 39 plus seem to have better blue water credentials than the Landfall seems to. Around the same "more money than I initially wanted to spend" as the Landfall.

However, my summer of cancer and surgeries is making me look at the pile of gold with different eyes. It is a battle between my frugal, no cheapskate, nature that got me to my current financial position vs "am I dead in 10 years?", and it is quite likely that latter point will win the debate. Don’t get me wrong, I am on my way to good health, and could live to 100 yet, but I definitely felt the cold finger of mortality tapping me on the shoulder a few months back.

Somewhere on this forum there was a thread started by some guy in a similar position as me, green as hell, but looking at a largish first boat and wondering about the trouble he could get into. I would have reviewed that thread before posting today if only I could find it again.

So with indulgence from the audience, if any, I will proceed to discuss my situation in as much brutal honesty as I can and invite the gentle reader to weigh in with any opinions either of a go for it nature, or don’t: you will end up running ashore.

Since I have already brought up the money aspect, let’s start there. Sure, putting 6 figures into a boat is more money than I have ever spent save for buying a house. That is balanced against the fact that the boat would only represent 10 or 15% of family net worth and if somehow we lost everything outside the house and pension, we’d find ourselves no worse off than the average person, except we’d have the house paid for. As far as annual costs go, I understand that the annual number will be on the order of $10,000. This sounds large, but really, it is only what we save every year in not running a second family vehicle like virtually everyone does in North America. We can swallow that. So I think the financial factor says stuff it, get what we want.

Why do I want such a large boat other than the headroom thing? Well one of the things I want to do is take guests. Often. This is part of my health epiphany. I have not perhaps been the best friend, son, brother over the years. I have been isolated and unsocial much of my life. Much of what I want to do here is give others a good experience with something which is otherwise outside their normal scope. My parents and in-laws are in their 70s and in various states of disrepair. I am not convinced that they or at least all of them can take the thrashing of a smaller boat, even on a day sail basis. This is something I want to share with them now, before the passage of time makes it too late. Younger friends and family I would want to take out on multi day sails, and not necessarily just 1 or 2 at a time, maybe 4 or 5 others in addition to my wife and myself on board. I have the feeling that a 32 footer would impair this goal, or maybe I am just talking myself into the larger vessel.

Next, onto disposition for sailing. Some people buy a boat and find out they don’t like sailing, and then sell the boat and lose a pile of money. Or perhaps one of us has perpetual sea sickness issues. The losing a pile of money factor doesn’t matter, see above. Plus there is no reason I shouldn’t like sailing a large boat. I sailed my laser for hours at a time in my youth for years. I see the sailing culture with similar values and physical hardships to the distance bicycling culture. I have cycled and camped half way across this country sleeping in my tent placed in schoolyards, fire hall yards, grave yards, farmer’s fields, etc. The creature comforts in a boat will usually be much better than this with the exception of gales perhaps. My wife doesn’t quite have the same cycling history, but she has gone on cycle trips and she hasn’t divorced me yet. I think it is highly likely that we will like large boat sailing and will be able to deal with the discomforts that it may throw at us from time to time. The disposition for sailing should be there.

What about maintenance skills? Well I am trained as an engineer so I like to think that I am capable of understanding a thing or two. I have plenty of practical experience around a house doing everything from roofing, to wiring, plumbing, framing, concrete work, etc. I have a fairly well equipped workshop with the usual wood working tools. In addition I have some metal skills. Though not currently set up I have a metal lathe and milling machine, arc welder and the usual set of hand tools here too. I got my ham licence 35 years ago. I am rusty not having been active for 25 years, but radio and electrical gear installation and wiring should be routine. I have done small GRP projects and repair. I think the only weak spot for me is engines. I just never got into cars and speed, so I don’t have any grease monkey in me, though I have and do change the oil on our car. Oh, I have disassembled and assembled the milling machine to get it into light enough chunks to slug down and later up the basement stairs at the old house. Even with mechanical things, probably the biggest issue is contorting my body to get at something and getting seized parts to move and not issues of understanding what I am doing. I managed to sort out my diesel tractor when the fuel gelled in the filter last winter, so maybe, just maybe I am not quite as mechanically useless as I am leading you all to believe. I assign myself a pass in this category.

What about sailing ability? Well I can sail a dinghy, so I understand fundamental sailing theory. I however have zero large boat sailing time and I have zero navigational skills. This is the area where I see major weakness. Running a 130 pound laser into something is one thing, 12 tons of Whitby 42 quite another. Presumably I can learn much of this over the winter: safety, weather, chart reading, compass, and celestial and GPS navigation stuff and the like. I imagine I could find the odd poor, but skilled 25 or 30 year old who would love the opportunity to sail in exchange for keeping the old guy out of trouble the first season or so.

So what say all of you 3 or 4 paying attention this far in, am I clear to salivate over Whitby 42s, or should I dial it back a bit and look at a 32- 35 footer to start? Of course the Whitby 42 is my crush this week, I reserve the right to fall for another boat next week.

Cheers.

Boulter

[gunkylump]

Get some navigation...and go for it! One doesn't know what tomorrow will bring....so go ahead and get that Whitby 42 and enjoy life.

I would love to go that large right now...but finances here won't permit it....just yet, but I am working on it. I work right beside the Detroit River, and I just can't wait to get on our boat and into the water.....although it won't happen until next year. If our plans hold out....5-8 years from now we'll move up to a larger boat from the Bayfield 29, outfit the way we want, and start to live the dream by heading south. It can't happen soon enough.

So, go for it! To hell with the brokers, find the boat you want, write up an offer contingent on it passing the survey, hire a surveyor of your choice, and get it done.

You must know that any questions you have will be answered in a variety of ways on this forum....and that helps a lot.

gunk

[Johnathon123]

Start with the premise that the majority of brokers have a real issue with doing a good job, giving advice, or generally being helpful.

From that premise you are on target, ready to sail.

It may be obvious but I have a low opinion of brokers based on my personal experience.

[gunboat]

Speaking as a person who jumped into the very deep end of boat ownership. Just do it. If you overthink it you'll kill half the pleasure. I bought a Cooper 508 nearly 2 years ago out of California. Brought her back to Vancouver where she was made. Lots of adventures already. Have put lots of time and money into her. All used boats need lots of both. I live on it to mitigate the cost. A little research and good instincts will guide you best. Sailing is best learned by experience. A few good books, this forum, and some friends with experience will get you sailing. The best things in my life usually had a strong element of spontanaity involved. Love the boat and sailing her. And yes this is the first large boat I've owned. Good luck.

[Boracay]

Had a quick read of your post and its not easy to do a complete reply but the main points that jumped out at me were cancer treatment, age and Whitby 42 and a desire to socialise.

Now, other than having the occasional quack spray a bit of liquid nitrogen on bits of me and being sliced and diced for the same reason I'm no expert on cancer but I do remember another member running into trouble as he was not strong enough to sail his boat and could not get a crew member do do it for him.

Could I suggest that a sailboat, particularly a large one is going to be difficult to manage single handed, or even two up? I've found that most of my old friends very much have their own lives now and don't want their groove disturbed.

And, unless my geography is even worse than usual it gets pretty cold in your parts from time to time, so the opportunities to get out and at it are, well, limited.

So its not as romantic but have you considered a trawler in Florida? Its pretty much a cliche but lots in your position do it and I recon you'd pick up a fairly nice one down there for about what you're planning on spending now.

And I'll bet lots of Canadians wouldn't need much of an excuse to come and visit...