Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

[reed1v]

Reminds me of a neighboring slip holder with a Hunter that dropped its keel out in mid ocean. New boat.

[reed1v]

BTW: "A full-keel boat would have had its rudder equally damaged but be harder to nurse north after the collision. What's proved by the incident is in the eye of the beholder."

Not true of transom hung rudders. Easy to repair/replace. If the boat is well balanced and a true course holder, even a transom hung wind vane like an old Aries will steer the boat(btdt).

[robert sailor]

Facts are that we are all bias about what boat makes the best offshore cruisers and that bias often leads back to the decisions we made when we purchased a boat. There are those here that believe the best choice is a newer production boat because the perception is that they are built better than boats of the past. Then there are those that don't want a boat built down to a price and they advocate either buying a more expensive boat or an older one that needs refitting as long as its built to a certain standard.
It all depends on what camp your in. Cruisers are very opinionated and the longer they cruise the more opinionated they get. Delivery skippers bring a certain view that may not be shared by long term cruisers. Folks that day sail between the islands bring opinions different than voyagers who do long ocean crossings. People with unlimited budgets view things differently from those that are tight for money. Its difficult when you have limited experience to be able to filter through some of these strong opinions and find help in a kindred spirit.
Like everyone here I'm opinionated...I'm not a fan of full keel boats but I do admire the salty looks and I do understand why sailors become attached to them plus I know some of them sail very well offshore.
Before I started crossing oceans I did a fair amount of racing so I like a boat that can perform however the first boat I took offshore was a mass produced racer/cruiser and when it was pushed a bit in rough seas the weaknesses started to show. Fortunately I didn't loose the rudder but it did require a complete rebuild after 5000 miles offshore, and that was after I rebuilt it before we departed. I started not liking underbuilt spade rudders. I prefer a partial skeg but that just me. Shallow bilges are on my do not bother with list, I'll never own another offshore boat with shallow bilges. I'm not partial to boats built with tabbed in liners I much prefer a stick built boat that has the bulkheads glassed directly to the hulls and deck. I owned a boat with a liner during my early learning years and gave it a good bump on a dock, had it checked and was told that some tabbing had broken loose. I had it fixed but the company would not guaranty the work because it was a hit and miss job to reglue the liner. I also like to be able to get at things that liners often cover up.
I know that the system works in most cases and has made boats much more affordable and many of my friends own similar boats and are very happy with them but you know I'm bias.
I don't like teak decks and I advise others to avoid them. I prefer masts that don't have swept back spreaders because you can never get the main out far enough when running in the trades. I like boats with adequate tankage and systems that are easy to repair and easy to get to. I like boats that have lots of good dry storage(you don't find that in ex charter boats) I prefer cast hatches to extruded ones. I like a boat that has real good sea bunks and a galley that is safe to cook at in a seaway. I like a boat that you can walk from one end to the other and always have good handholds. I would prefer not to have a saildrive. I like a boat that is easy to steer in a seaway and that can self steer with vane or autopilot in heavier going. I like a boat that has a good chart table that I can sit in and brace myself when underway. I like solent rigs. I could go on but like others have said most of my likes can be found in production boats and I'm bias.

[reed1v]

And i personally love teak decks. Looks, non skid quality, truly stiffens the topsides(for a plastic boat that is important), and long lasting(assuming good quality). Low maintenance is another issue(never sand nor wash with anything but salt water). Most folks just dont know how to leave them alone.

[robert sailor]

I love the look of teak decks i do not like the replacemment costs nor the discount on resale nor the heat in the tropics. i know many folks do not know how to properly look after them. Certainly good non skid and pretty to the eye.

[reed1v]

A well salted, bleached teak deck is not hot under the feet. Its when stupid folks put oils and varnishes on teak that make for hot feet. Never had a problem with burning feet on my teak decks in the tropics and sub tropics. Of course my feet had some mighty hard bottoms.

[robert sailor]

there are of course 2 kinds. Those that are screwed with a thousand bloody screws that lead to leaky decks and those that are glued. Some production builders used teak veneer on their decks. As i said love the look but if one is on a budget they should give them a pass. just my bias opinion

[reed1v]

Yes, had both. My Cheoy Lees loved screws. As long as bungs were maintained, all ok. My Hans Christian loved glue; and that on top of a solid fiberglass deck(never could understand folks removing the teak from HCs since the boats really had two structurally complete decks, glass below, teak on top). Glued down is an obvious plus. Family had some old schooners that used pine decks held down with wooden pegs. One schooner had virtually no iron in her hull, anywhere. But those days are long gone.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I started not liking underbuilt spade rudders. I prefer a partial skeg but that just me.

It happen I like spade rudders. Just prefer them to be overbuilt. But that's just me.
By the way - I have a teak deck. From the time I got one, I became a great fan of Esthec. Unhappily also expensive. Nothing bad about well finished GRP deck, I think. Even Amels have false teak, GRP made, decks - their experience (huge!) told them not tu use real teak.

Cheers!

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by reed1v

BTW: "Not true of transom hung rudders. Easy to repair/replace."

In my experience, there are a lot of failures on transom hung rudders. The loads on the pintels and gudgeons are higher than most designers estimate and they are susceptible to fatigue failures.

[reed1v]

Had a Yamaha 33(japanese version) and sailed it over to Hawaii in 82. Spade rudder, fin keel and sailed like a demon. But a lot of work even with auto pilot and a very busy ride. Amazing boat design: box and girders n hull, engine under v-berth, rounded hull to add stiffness. Skeg part of hull.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

In my experience, there are a lot of failures on transom hung rudders. The loads on the pintels and gudgeons are higher than most designers estimate and they are susceptible to fatigue failures.

True if the design is faulty. The Colin Archer rudders did not fail so much as exhausted whomever had the unfortunate task of handling the tiller. They work better with canoe sterns where they take the natural hull curve aft. Squared off sterns can cause a lot of slap on the rudder.

[robert sailor]

personally i do not have a problem with spade rudders. i understand the upsides of the design. i just do not like under built spades and when a boat is built down to a price it is unlikely that the rudder is not also built down to a price.

[robert sailor]

yamaha sailboats were very high quality go anywhere boats, we saw quite a few in the canadian west coast

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by reed1v

True. I preferred comfort and safety so sailed full keel, heavy displacement boats. Plus could haul out just about anywhere. Nothing quite like tonnage for a smooth ride on a rough sea.

The roughest ride I ever had in my life was on a steel schooner build in the early last century... The idea that "heavy with long keel" automatically equates safety and comfort is just nonsense.

There is a guy in France who, after spending a few years cruising Patagonia set up a yard to build the ultimate (in his views) go anywhere blue water yacht. Have a look: Bienvenue chez Boreal

If "full keel, heavy displacement" ever entered Jean-François Delvoye's mind, it didn't linger there for long...