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Old 25-12-2009, 15:16   #106
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I can guarantee you of one point I will not be replacing it with a wooden boat of any description, nor ketch nor classic. Constant maintenance is not my idea of cruising I am just as pig headed on those points.
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Old 25-12-2009, 15:38   #107
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I can guarantee you of one point I will not be replacing it with a wooden boat of any description, nor ketch nor classic. Constant maintenance is not my idea of cruising I am just as pig headed on those points.

Your next Rum is on Me! Agree about the wook and classic but not sure about the ketch as I have minimum experience on them and would not want to presume.

Note it will be served in a modern synthetic crystal glass (plastic) rather than in a wood mug or glass which tend to rot and smell or break!!!
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Old 25-12-2009, 16:54   #108
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I wonder if our classic friend has noticed that plastic is replacing cork in wine bottles. Even the most ardent of wine drinkers think it is an improvement. But of course some will yearn for the days of bits floating in ones glass.
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Old 25-12-2009, 18:36   #109
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Improvement or not, I will stick with cork in the bottle and grp in the boat. Not the other way round.

It is a cruising forum that is probably why you know so little about wines.

b.
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Old 25-12-2009, 18:43   #110
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Wauquiez,
Made by Beneteau.


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Old 25-12-2009, 20:00   #111
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So why are you buying a production boat to replace your Peterson instead of a Morris, Shannon, Wauquiez, Alubat or Hallberg Rassy? Or why not commission a custom design and have it built by a reputable yard?

The answer is, because you probably can't afford it. Please, don't make the argument that production boats exemplify the "new design, technology, etc." while the higher quality-- and higher cost-- alternatives are the "heavy and chrome laden" vestiges of the past.

There are lots of people cruising in production boats because there are alot of production boats. They're mass produced and mass marketed. They cost less when new, and they are relatively inexpensive when used, since they do not hold their value as well as a quality boat that is built to last.

So, to return to an automotive analogy, a Chevy is probably good enough for normal driving, but at 200 mph on the autobahn you'd really prefer a Mercedes, wouldn't you?
Boy do you have the right screen name!!

These threads are so absurd, and I'm surprised at myself for posting, but no one will accuse me of good judgment!

I've sailed and owned a decent number of boats, some gems and some cr*p. For a while there I sailed a Bayfield, which was built like a tank and we refit her, mostly ourselves, from the inside of the bilge out. I had a Freedom 45 that was very well built and had sailed quite far and wide. When it came time to buy a new boat, we went with a new Beneteau 49. Our reasons were several, and I won't get into them here, but you are right that cost was one of them (not the only reason, but it was one of them). Now, I will tell you that we had the ability to buy a more expensive boat, but we came to the conclusion that, for us, it wasn't worth it.

Anyone who suggests that the mass produced boats are equally well-built as Hinckleys, Morris, etc., is kidding themselves. And others who think mass produced boats can't safely leave the harbor also are kidding themselves. IMHO, and with utmost respect (seriously), your posture on this topic is not very balanced or reasonable. The production boats are fine for the overwhelming majority of planned uses, and that includes some offshore work and long term cruising. They wouldn't be my choice for high latitude sailing or even constant bluewater work, but you seem to think that if a sailor has a choice between going cruisng on a production boat or not going at all, you would advise them to get back in their cubicle and keep working. That's absurd, in my view. And if that's not your opinion, my apologies, but that's what seems to come through in this thread.

Your boat is beautiful by the way.
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Old 25-12-2009, 21:03   #112
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Made by Beneteau.


Wauquiez was bought by Beneteau in 1997, but was sold last year.
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Old 25-12-2009, 21:51   #113
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The notion that a Morris, Shannon or Hallberg Rassy is more difficult to maintain than a Hunter or Beneteau is ridiculous. There will be many fewer maintenance issues with a higher quality boat. The components are better, the workmanship is better. In fact, I would guess that there will be fewer issues with a well maintained 25 year old Morris or Hinckley than with a new Hunter or Beneteau-- and that's why you will pay just as much for the older boat.
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Old 26-12-2009, 02:25   #114
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If more posters put more bran in their food and less wood on their boats, dispositions would be improved.

Note the difference between new higher priced boats and new lower priced boats is not Quality...... it is cost of production and specifications of design to a set design criteria. Sticking to old and generally discarded concepts is not quality, just reluctance to change that often becomes more typical when one becomes set in their own ways and losses track of improvements being made.

Wine... cork or synthetic.... the synthetic is taking over because of improved quality control over natural cork which has many disadvantages but has been the "Standard" for a long time..... but I know a couple of guys down town that think the only good wine is those that come in a twist off cap, heck even cartons of wine are gaining popularity and I don't think 2% of people could tell the difference if they did not see where it came from, but they still have stong opinions.
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Old 26-12-2009, 02:33   #115
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Yet to be mentioned: depreciation and expected longevity.

It's a fact that buying a late model boat is not an investment, but a sure-fire loss because of depreciation. Older, well maintained boats keep their value better because they are already fully depreciated and so are actually a much better investment overall (wood excluded).

It's also a fact that modern design processes emphasize efficiency over longevity. This means that the expected life of the modern production boat is shorter than older (well-kept) designs. Again, this would translate into higher relative maintenance costs as time goes by.

BWS
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Old 26-12-2009, 03:58   #116
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Wauquiez was bought by Beneteau in 1997, but was sold last year.
OMG the quality shot up 1,000%?

I sailed on a mid-90's 54 footer and it was nice
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Old 26-12-2009, 05:55   #117
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If more posters put more bran in their food and less wood on their boats, dispositions would be improved.

Note the difference between new higher priced boats and new lower priced boats is not Quality...... it is cost of production and specifications of design to a set design criteria. Sticking to old and generally discarded concepts is not quality, just reluctance to change that often becomes more typical when one becomes set in their own ways and losses track of improvements being made.

Wine... cork or synthetic.... the synthetic is taking over because of improved quality control over natural cork which has many disadvantages but has been the "Standard" for a long time..... but I know a couple of guys down town that think the only good wine is those that come in a twist off cap, heck even cartons of wine are gaining popularity and I don't think 2% of people could tell the difference if they did not see where it came from, but they still have stong opinions.
I couldn't disagree more. The difference between a Chevrolet and a Mercedes or a Lexus is quality. Mercedes knows how to build a car efficiently too. It's just that Mercedes is a better design and uses better materials and manufacturing techniques. The tolerances are tighter and so is the QC.

If you want to argue that a production boat, with a cheap plastic interior (but don't forget that teak "veneer") and stock components gives you the most bang for the buck, that's fine. Certainly you get lots of cabins for the buck, and someone from the trade rags is always available to write a glowing review.
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Old 26-12-2009, 06:46   #118
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The notion that a Morris, Shannon or Hallberg Rassy is more difficult to maintain than a Hunter or Beneteau is ridiculous. There will be many fewer maintenance issues with a higher quality boat. The components are better, the workmanship is better. In fact, I would guess that there will be fewer issues with a well maintained 25 year old Morris or Hinckley than with a new Hunter or Beneteau-- and that's why you will pay just as much for the older boat.
I'm not sure what you're basing some of your assumptions on. For instance, what do you mean the "components are better" in terms of less maintenance? If you mean certain brands of equipment (electronics, wiring, winches, windlass, spars, etc.), then I think you are mistaken. There indeed are some things that are different and not as good on mass produced boats (i.e., the quality of stainless on certain fittings might not be as high, they may use in-line ball valves instead of true seacocks, etc.). Generally speaking, however, it is NOT less expensive to maintain the higher-end boats you are referencing, and the opposite is quite true. And I think you are way off base in concluding that a 25 year old Hinkley, Morris or whatever will have less maintenance issues than a newer Catalina or comparable.

Now, I do agree with you that the workmanship is better on Morris/Hinckley. There really is no questioning that, in my opinion anyway.

You didn't really address my last post to you. If your point is that the higher-end boats are nicer and higher quality, you'll get no argument from me. If your point is that the production boats of the type you are referencing are not suitable for anything other than sitting at a dock then, respectfully, I think you haven't spent much time sailing or cruising in them. Sail one for a bit before you condemn them all.
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Old 26-12-2009, 07:13   #119
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I'm sure that with some careful upgrading a production boat can become a safe blue water boat. But I'm a believer in Murphy's Law, so if I were planning on making long passages to remote areas I would want the peace of mind that comes with the extra quality. It's just a question of which compromises individuals are willing to make.
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Old 26-12-2009, 08:35   #120
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About your choice...

Curmudgeon,
If you truely believe the things that you say, and it most certianly appears that you do, why on earth did you not buy a Morris, HR, or even a 25 year old Hinkley instead of a plywood boat designed to be owner built in the back yard?
I just don't get it???
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