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Old 21-12-2009, 18:37   #46
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The first answer: 10% boat, 90% sailor.

That being said, of course, you want to make the right decision concerning that 10%.

I have not owned a mass produced boat myself. Almost bought an Oyster; ended up with a Moody, with 900 liters of water tanks and 650 liters of fuel. I paid a pretty penny. But I chartered a lot of Benes over the years, and absolutely loved one 423, which was one of the best sailing vessels I've ever been on. So, you know, just buy the boat you like best, within your budget. I do second the recommendation, to try as many as possible, before making your final decision.
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Old 21-12-2009, 18:38   #47
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steinbeck

I find myself agreeing with John Steinbeck, who, in the 2nd chapter of The Log from the Sea of Cortez, wrote, "Bad boats are built, surely, but not many of them" (13).

If there's any truth in the above quote, one has to marvel that so much of the argument against "production boats" lies in the fact that so many of them are built.
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Old 21-12-2009, 18:55   #48
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Coming in a bit late here but I had a bad experience with a Beneteau 42. 40 knot plus headwind, close to coast so choppy confused seas. Got knocked down twice. Whilst the boat itself was fine - rigging, hull etc - the fitout literally fell apart. Head door came off, saloon table broke off mounting, all sorts of damage below.

My point is that however solid and well designed the boat may be, if it's inadequately fitted out then it will let you down.

We found packs of cornflakes, pieces of fruit etc wedged in all sorts of places for months afterwards.
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Old 21-12-2009, 19:42   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post

The fastnet race and the 1998 Sydney - Hobart boats that got into trouble were lightly built boats. But I think the Sydney Hobart class that year was won by a Beneteau First.
In my eyes, we cannot say, from damages done to equipment in the racing mod, about the quality of boats.

Just see the percentage of boats in trouble in S-H vs. the percentage of damage in QB!

Racing sailors may be damaging boats, but they do so when they push to win. Cruisers will damage boats because they are more likely to be under-skilled, under-crewed and unused to sailing efficiently in heavy weather.

I think, if we reverse the roles and put a racing sailor in the cruising mod, they will have far fewer accidents and make much less damage to the boat whatever the weather, and whatever the design.

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Old 21-12-2009, 20:41   #50
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One persons experience in prepping and racing a Beneteau 393:

beneteau 373 - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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Old 21-12-2009, 21:46   #51
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If some of you want to go out on blue water with a sailboat built to a price point, with a fin keel and an unsupported spade rudder, and whose decks flex when you walk on them at a boat show, I wish you good luck!

And you should take comfort from the fact that if you do drown, it was 90% your fault and only 10% was the boat.
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Old 22-12-2009, 03:29   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

I think, if we reverse the roles and put a racing sailor in the cruising mod, they will have far fewer accidents and make much less damage to the boat whatever the weather, and whatever the design.

b.
OK Barnie, I do like to disagree with you at times but this is an area that I haven't really touched on as it may be a bit sensitive to some, and 'touch wood' waving my finger at providence.

Many old buggers spend 6 years refitting their boat thinking they know what they are doing with wood rasp and chisel, or poxy and bodge, but then when they finally leave port they find themselves overwhelemd by a blow that any racer on a flimsy ULBD woould relish.

Perhaps what I am saying is for those that slag off production boats maybe they should go race offshore for 5 or 10 years and then decide to cruise the world. Sailed with that vast amount of knowledge PLUS the knowledge of the finer points of what a production boat can or can't actually do, they would have a safe and enjoyable tropical circumnavigation and cruising life

People who have less knowledge should be blaming themselves more than their friggin' boat!


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Old 22-12-2009, 03:45   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
One persons experience in prepping and racing a Beneteau 393:

beneteau 373 - Sailing Anarchy Forums
It really irritates me when imbiciles try to race cruising boats.

His main complain is that it had in mast furling main!

Who is going to race a boat with in mast furling main?

So please don't use examples of people with IQ close to a loaf of bread.


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Old 22-12-2009, 03:52   #54
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I love it! We've gone from your boat sucks to you don't know how to sail.

Honestly cruisers simply don't push a boat the way a racer does. I'm not sure that a Bene will hold up too days on end of upwind work in the Mona Passage but I'm pretty sure the cruising sailors isn't going to find out.

Short story. On the way home this spring after launching we ran into a little wind. We were broad reaching in 45 or so with just a staysail making 14 or so. At the time I was thinking it must have been a hoot racing the boat. If we were racing in those conditions we would have had a full main and a chicken kite. As a cruiser I was happy to loaf along with the staysail.
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Old 22-12-2009, 03:58   #55
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Mark, WHL is a good guy. He knows his way around a boat and states the reason for racing the boat is a charity event and to try to help out an owner.

You've raced so you understand, sometimes a new owner doesn't realize what racing is all about. They don't realize how badly they are outclassed till the gun goes bang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
It really irritates me when imbiciles try to race cruising boats.

His main complain is that it had in mast furling main!

Who is going to race a boat with in mast furling main?

So please don't use examples of people with IQ close to a loaf of bread.


Mark
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Old 22-12-2009, 04:01   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
OK Barnie, I do like to disagree with you at times but this is an area that I haven't really touched on as it may be a bit sensitive to some, and 'touch wood' waving my finger at providence.

Many old buggers spend 6 years refitting their boat thinking they know what they are doing with wood rasp and chisel, or poxy and bodge, but then when they finally leave port they find themselves overwhelemd by a blow that any racer on a flimsy ULBD woould relish.

Perhaps what I am saying is for those that slag off production boats maybe they should go race offshore for 5 or 10 years and then decide to cruise the world. Sailed with that vast amount of knowledge PLUS the knowledge of the finer points of what a production boat can or can't actually do, they would have a safe and enjoyable tropical circumnavigation and cruising life

People who have less knowledge should be blaming themselves more than their friggin' boat!


Mark
I like to disagree with you from time to time. This isn't one of those times though

I don't think the big question is if a production boat can handle it, most can and will. As stated before, the question is if the crew can handle it. A big and experienced racing crew will probably sail effectively through most kinds of weather while a small (maybe just an older couple) cruising crew will have problems sailing actively for an extended period of time. This is where the boat comes into picture, i.e. how will the boat behave when left on it's own with a sea anchor, hove to or a drogue? This is where there, usually (not always), is a difference between heavy displacement, full keel v-bottomed boats and light displacement, flatbottomed, fin keeled ones.

/Hampus
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Old 22-12-2009, 04:29   #57
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Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats?

That was the question - and the answer is undoubtably yes.

I would suggest there are more of these brands cruising that any other single boat producer and the arguments on choice will never end.

Just always remember extended sailing is usually 90% at anchor / berthed up. Most circumnavigation routes see you in ligher as opposed to heavier airs. Good luck with your selection process.


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Old 22-12-2009, 06:06   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
It really irritates me when imbiciles try to race cruising boats.

His main complain is that it had in mast furling main!

Who is going to race a boat with in mast furling main?

So please don't use examples of people with IQ close to a loaf of bread.


Mark
The boat originally had an in mast furling main, but one of the first things they did when they started the project was to replace it and put on a normal mainsail with slab reefing. So it was not raced with the in mast furling main.

His main complaint that all of the hardware was undersized and a substantial portion had to be replaced, including the traveler, winches, stoppers, blocks, jib furler, etc.

Not exactly confidence building to hear that the rudder stock tube was delaminating from the hull, or that the aluminum toe rail was bent up between the bolts, possibly due to hull flexing.
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Old 22-12-2009, 07:02   #59
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Quote:
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His main complaint that all of the hardware was undersized and a substantial portion had to be replaced, including the traveler, winches, stoppers, blocks, jib furler, etc.

.
They are only undersized in his opinion for racing and he's lyng about the deck flex.
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Old 22-12-2009, 07:09   #60
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They are only undersized in his opinion for racing and he's lyng about the deck flex.
What would be a good explaination for the way the aluminum toe rail bent between the bolts other than the hull bending?
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