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Old 19-07-2012, 08:46   #541
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
Visiting a shipyard is not the point of the issue. Paying a visit to a yard is far away from intimately known all production processes.
If you are standing there while they spray the gelcoat and layup a hull, walking through the factory at floor level, and stepping aside as the workers pass you by, all to where the insides are installed and the deck is put down..
I think you get a pretty good Idea..
When Our New Catalina was being built, I was there when the hull was laid up, I was there when It was pulled from the mold, and sat in the loft while the sails were being built.. I saw every part of the built from the start to the finish..
I saw firsthand ALL of the process of the build and could have recorded the numbers off the drum of the resin used If I cared to..
I dont know what you are refering to but I had all the information I asked for..
Even in the PS factory, I was able to mingle with the workers and ask questions.. Even had the oppertunity to share lunch with the workers..
At Beneteau EU, I was asked to wear a Tyvek suit while in the factory and looked and mingled with the workers..
Was never denied information from anyone..
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Old 19-07-2012, 09:56   #542
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This is exactly the point that I made and many other experienced cruisers. Most production boats today are " bluewater" capable ( whatever that's phrase means ) there seems to be an enormous group of sailors that seem to justify what they purchased by running other types down.

The fact is modern production boats dont generally suffer many problems, rather like modern cars. They " do" the job. After that it's in the mind of the beholder. I toured beneteau and Halberg rassy . One was mass assembled the other hand lots of manual input. ( with a fair bit of CNC ) but other then looking a certain way. I couldn't tell which was " better"

Dave
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Old 19-07-2012, 11:06   #543
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
If you are standing there while they spray the gelcoat and layup a hull, walking through the factory at floor level, and stepping aside as the workers pass you by, all to where the insides are installed and the deck is put down..
I think you get a pretty good Idea..
When Our New Catalina was being built, I was there when the hull was laid up, I was there when It was pulled from the mold, and sat in the loft while the sails were being built.. I saw every part of the built from the start to the finish..
I saw firsthand ALL of the process of the build and could have recorded the numbers off the drum of the resin used If I cared to..
I dont know what you are refering to but I had all the information I asked for..
Even in the PS factory, I was able to mingle with the workers and ask questions.. Even had the oppertunity to share lunch with the workers..
At Beneteau EU, I was asked to wear a Tyvek suit while in the factory and looked and mingled with the workers..
Was never denied information from anyone..
I am referring to nothing.
You are talking about comparing boats, so you have to buy many yachts in order to compare them physically.
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Old 19-07-2012, 18:52   #544
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This one is pretty cool,they went all the way with a First 40.7;
030 Bestemming Antarctica Archieven | giebateau.weblog.nl

It is in Dutch so you'll need Google translate
Nope... am Dutch too

cheers,
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Old 19-07-2012, 19:01   #545
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Originally Posted by JRM

Question for you Nick and the others here:

How does one really make blanket statements about such things? I looked for a while, and looked at every boat even near my price range in a large swath of area. If I learned anything, it's that you can't prejudge any one boat based on it's supposed pedigree or Internet description.

We made an offer on a Beneteau 393 that had been back and forth to Hawaii several times, singlehanded. I would have felt comfortable sailing the world in it. I looked at a not-too-old Tartan that was in such a state that I wouldn't have felt comfortable sailing it to Catalina. I've heard many arguments about why Tartan is supposed to be so much better than Beneteau, but in those two real world examples of boats I looked at to purchase, I would take the Beneteau any day and twice on Sundays. In fact, if the owner's estate had really wanted to sell instead of just dangling the boat, I'd be sailing it right now. I also looked at a 35 year old Tartan that had everything I could have wanted or needed except one (which unfortunately was in our "must have" category), and it kills me that I had to pass on it. It was in sail away and sail the world tomorrow shape.

I have at least another dozen such examples, and I'm just a beginner. And as a beginner, I'd like to hear specifics. If someone says "Boat X isn't capable of crossing Y" please be specific as to why. Or, more importantly, if "Boat W is a great 'Blue Water' passagemaker" then please enumerate those attributes that make it so. That's what I'm really interested in.

I've read all the books that are commonly referred to here, but books are no substitute for miles. Isn't that why most of us are here, to tap the collective experience?

We recently bought an old Valiant because, in the end, the Admiral and I just plain liked it more than any other boat we looked at in our price range. By a large margin. And when we took it out to the islands for the first time last week, it just felt right.

I have no idea what my point is, other than it seems silly to paint boats with such a broad brush. Look at the individual, the right one will speak to you.

JRMJ
well said!!!
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Old 19-07-2012, 19:15   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRM

Question for you Nick and the others here:

How does one really make blanket statements about such things? I looked for a while, and looked at every boat even near my price range in a large swath of area. If I learned anything, it's that you can't prejudge any one boat based on it's supposed pedigree or Internet description.

We made an offer on a Beneteau 393 that had been back and forth to Hawaii several times, singlehanded. I would have felt comfortable sailing the world in it. I looked at a not-too-old Tartan that was in such a state that I wouldn't have felt comfortable sailing it to Catalina. I've heard many arguments about why Tartan is supposed to be so much better than Beneteau, but in those two real world examples of boats I looked at to purchase, I would take the Beneteau any day and twice on Sundays. In fact, if the owner's estate had really wanted to sell instead of just dangling the boat, I'd be sailing it right now. I also looked at a 35 year old Tartan that had everything I could have wanted or needed except one (which unfortunately was in our "must have" category), and it kills me that I had to pass on it. It was in sail away and sail the world tomorrow shape.

I have at least another dozen such examples, and I'm just a beginner. And as a beginner, I'd like to hear specifics. If someone says "Boat X isn't capable of crossing Y" please be specific as to why. Or, more importantly, if "Boat W is a great 'Blue Water' passagemaker" then please enumerate those attributes that make it so. That's what I'm really interested in.

I've read all the books that are commonly referred to here, but books are no substitute for miles. Isn't that why most of us are here, to tap the collective experience?

We recently bought an old Valiant because, in the end, the Admiral and I just plain liked it more than any other boat we looked at in our price range. By a large margin. And when we took it out to the islands for the first time last week, it just felt right.

I have no idea what my point is, other than it seems silly to paint boats with such a broad brush. Look at the individual, the right one will speak to you.

JRMJ
I guess you already found out it isn't that easy. There will be many who do not agree with me but here it goes:

1. There are some ratings. They are a joke. But a blue water boat must at least carry the A1 "ocean crossing" rating. Bene's have that I think.

2. Old can still be good, but on average, new is better. Go for newer designs and younger boats.

3. I would never cross oceans in old and wooden.

4. I sailed a steel boat for 17 years and maintenance was hell but it was plenty strong. I still believe aluminium is about perfect when built right, like an Ovni. That said, I sail "plastic fantastic"

5. In the end, it only matters if the boat gets you across safely time after time. Look at others who do great and what boats they have. Also look at disasters and what boats were involved.

6. The "captain factor" : a good sailor can take a leaky bucket across where a noob sinks a new Halberg Rassy or something. There are boats that look after themselves but they are often pricey.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 19-07-2012, 23:04   #547
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

I am multi lingual, and frequently read Dutch, German, French, British and American yachting magazines.
One of the things one notices is that the idea of what a "proper blue water cruiser" is, at least in the mind of sailing journalists, varies a lot.
For the Dutch the ultimate blue water cruiser seems to be anything that has "Koopmans" attached to it. They sure all look well build and sturdy, but why do Dutch yards still cover everything in Teak veneer below?
For the French it's alumium centerboarders. Ovni, or Allures. I also find the RM range quite interesting.

Since the spectrum of yachts that are claimed to be "proper blue water yachts" by people pretending to know is so large, I tend to believe that the statement that some make, that most modern production boats can be used for blue water sailing is credible.

So then the right boat to go cruising with is just becomes "what boat from a reputable yard ticks all the right boxes for me". For me at the moment it's the RM1060. If I had the time...
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Old 20-07-2012, 17:11   #548
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Originally Posted by K_V_B
I am multi lingual, and frequently read Dutch, German, French, British and American yachting magazines.
One of the things one notices is that the idea of what a "proper blue water cruiser" is, at least in the mind of sailing journalists, varies a lot.
For the Dutch the ultimate blue water cruiser seems to be anything that has "Koopmans" attached to it. They sure all look well build and sturdy, but why do Dutch yards still cover everything in Teak veneer below?
For the French it's alumium centerboarders. Ovni, or Allures. I also find the RM range quite interesting.

Since the spectrum of yachts that are claimed to be "proper blue water yachts" by people pretending to know is so large, I tend to believe that the statement that some make, that most modern production boats can be used for blue water sailing is credible.

So then the right boat to go cruising with is just becomes "what boat from a reputable yard ticks all the right boxes for me". For me at the moment it's the RM1060. If I had the time...
Yes nice boat the new 1060. It would make a good fast cruiser.

Dave
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Old 27-07-2012, 20:41   #549
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

People have crossed oceans in all sorts of boats. If it is constructed well, and most modern production boats probably fit into that category, it becomes more a question of ride. With a bluewater boat you are going to have what I can at best call a more stable ride. A Jeanneau, Catalina or Bavaria the ride will be more tender but with good skills a sailor can get it just about anywhere.

If you want to look at what can be done, look no farther than the non-bluewater boats that they race around the world. Here's a glimpse.



But then there are the bekini cruisers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&NR=1&v=ZdGpyE4MMuA

NOTE: When you click on the link you will go to a page that looks like an error has ocurred. You need to click to display the video in a new frame.
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Old 27-07-2012, 22:27   #550
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Very well said mlibkind. Every sailor has an opinion. And of course, their opinion is the right one; just ask them, they will tell you. That is my opinion anyway. But having seeing what is out there, you are absolutely right. The range is wide, and we're all out there having a good time - as well as our challenges. None of us escapes that.
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Old 31-07-2012, 12:11   #551
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Do not buy one Ivan! You will DIE!!!!! We were killed before we even left the marina!!!!!! In fact we were still in the bar listeneing to people tell us we were going to DIE when the boat exploded and we were hit by flying debris through the bar window! Its was catestrohic and we blame all production boats! Only they will kill you. Nothing else.


By the way, the water here is greenish so are we safe? Yesterday at Pipi Island is was clear. Last week we had blue water


Mark
PS We would never buy anything but a production boat. More space, better bang for your buck
LMAO. Makes me feel better the next time we charter a Catalina.
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Old 31-07-2012, 12:37   #552
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

I think the reason there's no definitive answer is that most of our experience with "blue water" boats is with boats we own, which is to say boats we chose because we believed them to be blue water boats.

I chose a Tayana 37 and I think she performed very well on a recent offshore passage. She was sufficiently fast (one 130nm day under sail), dry, relatively comfortable in rough seas, etc. Bias confirmed. Likewise, Jedi chose a Sundeer, so naturally his experience validates his original reasoning. Etc, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to "bluewater boats" our confirmation bias takes over. We like what we know.
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Old 26-12-2013, 12:06   #553
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

I have circumnavigated in a bavaria 36 in 18 months with no problems apart from a damaged spray hood.Also 2 Atlantic crossings
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Old 26-12-2013, 12:14   #554
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Very well said mlibkind. Every sailor has an opinion. And of course, their opinion is the right one; just ask them, they will tell you. That is my opinion anyway. But having seeing what is out there, you are absolutely right. The range is wide, and we're all out there having a good time - as well as our challenges. None of us escapes that.
True. I preferred comfort and safety so sailed full keel, heavy displacement boats. Plus could haul out just about anywhere. Nothing quite like tonnage for a smooth ride on a rough sea.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:13   #555
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Here are some examples of why there there's no definitive A to the Q:
1. Within a given brand (e.g. Beneteau), construction quality can vary widely, among other reasons because the factory that built a given boat is new or had a labor action (and so new workers) or is in a different country altogether. Ex: When sailing in the UK, Beneteau was building some models boats in eastern Europe, then kitting them out in France and labeling them as French built. Poor gelcoat quality control created many issues for Beneteau and owners.
2. Two identical boats can have two entirely different lives, one a Harbor Queen and the other in charter in an unforgiving cruising area with tough weather. Ex: A Bene First 40 hauled out in the Lisbon yard next to us, the new owner wanting his rusty(!) mast support to be replaced. The workers found pools of diesel in the structural webbing underneath the support, which was traced back to a leaky tank with the fuel being siphoned thru the hull core, from aft all the way forward. Totally compromised hull. The boat had been in charter in the Adriatic. Yard owner encouraged the owner not to cross Biscay but off he went.
3. Regionally popular boats can earn a rep for being seaworthy because they are often seen sailing, winning races, having happy owners...but familiarity may be irrelevant to serious open water cruising. Exs: SoCal boats of the 60's and 70's might be one generic example. More recently, we followed one new, popular Brazilian sloop limp from one Pacific Island group to the next, one major issue at a time. It was build under license from Spain where it is one of 'the' popular national brands.
4. Designers and builders are human, too. Ex: A First 32 we berthed next to in Portugal was slowly having its deck mold peeled up from its hull by its backstay. Did the design misplace the backstay chainplate? Or inadequately design the aft deck mold? Did the builder change the design for construction convenience? Do all First 32 models of that same era suffer the same problem? Who knows...
5. The major components of any boat can be strongly designed and built but lack construction details which would have made them safer and so of 'ocean cruising' suitability. Ex: A large Beneteau was sailing in/out of the Valetta, Malta harbor while we were wintering there. It clipped a rock on a late tacking turn, the rudder post tore the local laminate, the hull was not compartmentalized, and down it went...right in the harbor channel.
6. Work is subbed out but construction oversight might not be: Ex: A beautiful new ~46' Jenneau was purchased by a Lisbon attorney, sailed off to the Azores & back and, when being hauled to fix the various (inevitable) construction related but minor problems, was discovered to have its keel separating from its hull. An independent structural engineering firm was called in to assess the problem and they could not identify the keel material (which was supposed to be lead but in fact was not). Inquiries to Jeanneau eventually revealed the keel was built by a subcontractor, the work was not supervised and so could not be validated by Jeanneau. Enter opposing attorneys, stage left, who began battling out the details.
7. Sometimes one incident can support a strongly held belief by some but claimed to be unimportant by others. Ex: A Catalina 36 drug its anchor in southern Tonga while we were there, bent its rudder post, shattered the rudder, and the owner had to hire a delivery skipper to nurse it up to Nuku'alofa so a new rudder could be shipped in. (We are NOT talking about a few weeks' affair here...) Ah-ha! cried some: Unsupported, semi-balanced blade rudders don't belong on ocean cruising sailboats. Phooey! claimed others: A full-keel boat would have had its rudder equally damaged but be harder to nurse north after the collision. What's proved by the incident is in the eye of the beholder.

The list of variables is almost endless, as are the anecdotal tales we all collect and the personal lenses thru which we each view these tales. I've seen crap boats and good ocean sailing boats of the same brand. I've seen 'plastic classic' boats (one of which we sailed 30,000 miles) that were both atrociously built and strongly, thoughtfully built - and at about the same price points. How to generalize this into specific, sound advice is all but impossible. But it sure is fun to talk about!

Jack
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