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Old 20-12-2009, 17:36   #31
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It is not difficult to break a boat, it's not difficult to baby a boat. Maybe the question should be about the sailor not the boat.
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Old 20-12-2009, 19:42   #32
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Agreed. I believe the truer topic is, "what is required of the long range sailor." The question is not about the long range boat.

"Resilience" is the first word that comes to my mind?

Elizabeth and I were in a remote port looking for eggs. After finding a lady who had eggs for sale, we went over to buy. No egg cartons. Of course, we are not in America where eggs come in cartons. We are in not-america where eggs come from chickens that just laid them, collected by children who bring them to the lady who sells them, etc. A found paper bag, some tufts of weeds pulled from the road side to cradle the eggs, and off we went to the yacht for an egg dinner.

Delish!

Resilience.
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Old 20-12-2009, 21:35   #33
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It is not difficult to break a boat, it's not difficult to baby a boat. Maybe the question should be about the sailor not the boat.
No the question was suitability of boats listed for long range blue water cruising but anti production boat bias has as usual taken over. My question to those people is what are people going to sail in the future when the present old heavy displacement yachts become historic pieces. Take a Kelly Peterson 44, in its day it was a production boat made in much lower numbers but never the less it was made in numbers by a particular yard in Taiwan. They are great boats that have cruised for over thirty years but! Are these same people going to try and tell us they did not have faults built into them which are very expensive to rectify.
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Old 21-12-2009, 04:16   #34
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A found paper bag, some tufts of weeds pulled from the road side to cradle the eggs, and off we went to the yacht for an egg dinner.

.
Dinner and a smoke!

This should be in that be in that 'counter culture' thread!



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Old 21-12-2009, 04:44   #35
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... What I find remarkable about discussions of Beneteau and certain other "production" yachts, is the number of opinions expressed by people that are not owner's of the yachts being discussed if not maligned. If one wants to know about a certain class of yacht, it might be wise to enquire of those that have owned/cruised them, eh?
FWIW...
s/v HyLyte
Very true, owners should have much more specific experience regards a given yacht, than would most outside reviewers.
However, asking an owner to evaluate their boat, may be somewhat like asking a parent to evaluate their own child. Some of us might be a little more objective, than others. Some might be a little more knowledgeable than others.
Mere familiarity (thru’ ownership) may not always guarantee our opinions.
The Copelands represent the kind of reviewer whose opinion I would respect. Experienced & knowledgable sailors, and owners.
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Old 21-12-2009, 05:10   #36
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There's something to learn from this discussion that transcends the boat brands being discussed, so let's not overlook it as well. What can be 'typical' in these discussions is that any specific discussion on specific issues related to some boat brands gets quickly labeled as 'anti-production boat bias'. This makes the discussion easier, for some at least, because it shifts the focus to 'bias' (argumentum ad hominem - if you can't argue the issue, argue the person) rather than dealing with the perplexing, challenging task of differentiating between 'suitable' and 'unsuitable' boats. My reading of the tenor of this discussion is that there isn't generic slamming of all models of any particular boat brand here.

"What I find remarkable about discussions...is the number of opinions expressed by people that are not owner's of the yachts being discussed..."

Really? Investors can only know about stocks they own, but not by researching & observing the performance of other companies? Only 'ownership' (of a car, a house, or a boat) legitimizes one holding an informed opinion worthy of being considered by others? Surely, discussion can reach beyond those presumed limits. To illustrate this, here's another specific example of a boat building practice: Some boats (and tho' I could be wrong, I think this is selectively in use only by the high-volume production builders) fasten the hull structure to the deck structure by adhesive alone. Not just no thru-bolting of the hull/deck joint...but also no mechanical fastening of any kind (screw, rivet) of the mish-mash, adhesive or other bonding agent securing the hull/deck joint. So how does that work, in practice, as the boat's monocoque form is worked in a seaway, being racked and twisted? When it experiences an unintentional grounding? When it unintentionally takes a hard hit against a fuel dock or berth piling? It's certainly not necessary to own such a boat to learn how successful this practice has been. Nor is it a form of 'bias' to end up concluding that, for some purposes, boats with this kind of joint are simply not suitable choices.

The reference to BAGHEERA, Andy & Liza's Beneteau 38 is a good one and, if you've talked with either of them, you'll find they are very pleased (and proud) of their boat choice. (In fact, their views 'feel' to me very much like the pleasure and pride I hear when reading some of Mark's blog commentary about his Beneteau). Just don't overlook the context in which the boat was chosen and then cruised when reading the article. The previous comment about not overlooking the seamanship of the sailor is spot-on, and both Andy & Liza were already pretty accomplished sailors when beginning their cruising. More importantly, they have a fair amount of 'grit', something present in all distance sailors. And as a regional sales rep, Andy knew the entire Beneteau line well. His was not a 'how big a boat can I get for my money?' choice. And of course, the major difference for today's buyer is that BAGHEERA is a Beneteau built during a different era and built using somewhat different methods, chemicals and materials than is true today. Is a Beneteau built in the last five years (and coming out of charter now) up to doing a Circle today? I'd suggest that the only reasonable answer is 'It depends...' and the devil's in the detail.

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Old 21-12-2009, 10:43   #37
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I feel Eurocruiser is quite mistaken in his comments. If anything modern mass production generates a much better boat then in the past. Theres far more science involved. Its just like cars. Bene/Jenes and Bav call all circumnavigate. All can handle really bad weather ( I know I do deliveries). However many sailors cant.

Yes there are reported faults in all these models but spread over the numbers produced its tiny, Its just like all the junk you hear about Taiwan or Chineese bots or Catalinas or Hunters. ( actually is there any "production " Boat somebody isnt winging about)

Modern boats are well made, well put together , arguably better put together then thoses 20 years ago. Mass prodution allows quality equipment to be used yest the boat sold at reasonable prices. YTake Beneteau, you get quailty branded rigging, Lewmar or HArken deck gear, Yanmar, etc. This is all good stuff.

Buy it and sail it, dont listen to much to the purists.
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Old 21-12-2009, 13:38   #38
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Euro Cruiser - it is obvious you do do not like the boats being discussed. Your posts are like novels but if you remove the padding you make a number of barbed opinions of those boats without naming exact makes or models.
"And of course, the major difference for today's buyer is that BAGHEERA is a Beneteau built during a different era and built using somewhat different methods, chemicals and materials than is true today. Is a Beneteau built in the last five years (and coming out of charter now) up to doing a Circle today? I'd suggest that the only reasonable answer is 'It depends...' and the devil's in the detail."
Do you have well researched evidence that the material and chemicals used today do not perform as well. When did yesterday finish and today start?
As I said not specific but with a definite bias!
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Old 21-12-2009, 13:55   #39
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Speaking of BAGHEERA, Its not really in the same class as the everyday Beneteau.
Its a FIRST series, a french boat and designed to RACE in open ocean conditions..
The 38 they own was built in the mid 80s and designed to compete in the Admirals Cup along with the 42 and 456..
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Old 21-12-2009, 15:23   #40
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Even notice that a early to mid 80s "classic" boat lots of times is listed for less than an early 90s "production" boat? In lots of posts on the site were it gets stated that the "newer" boats aren't any good, why are they managing to compete in the sales market? In the auto world a newer Toyota Camry is worth more than a 3 year older Lexus. Now days the "low" quality cars are pretty darn good and better that the older "high" quality car. Why cann't anyone believe the same may hold true for boats?
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Old 21-12-2009, 15:43   #41
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Don the reason is common sense a lack of that is!
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Old 21-12-2009, 16:02   #42
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Randyonr3 brings up one of my questions: How different are the Beneteau First boats from the Oceanis and "regular" Beneteaus? When they are advertised as "racing" boats, does that really mean they are more seaworthy or durable?
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Old 21-12-2009, 16:18   #43
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There is a world of difference in the design of the yachts although the Oceanus series are quite well built and many have made siginificant ocean passages. The Oceanus yachts were primarily designed for the Charter Trade and coastal cruising and are perfect for that but are accordingly lighter. The First's were designed for Ocean Racing in all conditions and are accordingly more heavily built. In either case, Beneteau has very stringent engineering and manufacturing standards and all the yachts are very well built for their intended use.

FWIW...
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Old 21-12-2009, 17:12   #44
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Don the reason is common sense a lack of that is!
Have no idea what this means or it's point! Is it about why cann't people believe there is possible quality in productiuon boats?
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Old 21-12-2009, 18:15   #45
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When they are advertised as "racing" boats, does that really mean they are more seaworthy or durable?
Or does it mean they are lighter, faster and therefore less seaworthy and require a greater crew for safety?

There are questions like that that would be interestinmg to get the designers perspecitve.

The fastnet race and the 1998 Sydney - Hobart boats that got into trouble were lightly built boats. But I think the Sydney Hobart class that year was won by a Beneteau First.
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