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Old 27-05-2011, 11:16   #406
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Good steel welding is not easy. Nor can you take a class and become a good welder. It matters not whether it's stick or MIG or TIG. If you examine the welds under X-ray there's world of difference between talented beginners and experts. Throw in some overhead or awkward positions and then see.

I'm not knocking you're efforts , just don't claim it's easy merely because you did a class or two.

Dave
I disagree dave. As long as you get good or reasonable penetration, it doesn't matter whether you are a so called expert or not. Steel welding is extremely strong - and most welds will provide adequate support for what we need to do in the mundane of flat boring boatbuilding. In more extreme complex designs - perhaps some specialized skills make the expert. And I think you have made a point yourself.

The fact that you need to xray to validate - regardless of expert or not. Which was equally pressed on me by that well respected instructor who had over 30 years as a professional. Bottom line: you don't know. No one does.

To sum: for what we need to do, its entirely possible to become well skilled enough to support our metal boats. There's no magic here. That doesn't mean we cannot get better at it or need to practice. It just means we can get the skills necessary for what we need to do. They arent beyond mortal reach
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Old 27-05-2011, 11:21   #407
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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as far as i can see, ANY boat can cross oceans-- depends on the sailor at the helm.... ask mark j about bendytoys crossing oceans-- he will know best....he DID it!!!!!
for the record-- a while back, a catalina 27 named my sweet lord sailed around the word---- use good judgement and learn to sail well----- it all comes down to the soul at the helm.....
Also has to do with luck. Mother Ocean can sink anyone she wants but can also let anyone she wants pass.
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Old 27-05-2011, 11:24   #408
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think you make this up. Firstly all the material is plywood veneered or melamine. It certainly stands up well ad I seen 25 year old boats

As to the 42 i can't say what sailers were on board but they ate main driven boats and sail very well on the main alone.

As to the headliner that's usually the fault of poor maintenance. I've seen the same thing on a tayana

Dave
agree..

All the things sited - headliner and leaks and plywood - are suspect as common maintenance issues or are not uncommon. Headliners especially on old boats are in need of replacement.
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Old 27-05-2011, 11:33   #409
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think you make this up. Firstly all the material is plywood veneered or melamine. It certainly stands up well ad I seen 25 year old boats

As to the 42 i can't say what sailers were on board but they ate main driven boats and sail very well on the main alone.

As to the headliner that's usually the fault of poor maintenance. I've seen the same thing on a tayana

Dave
Dave, why would I make this up? It's really a silly accusation.

As I mentioned before, I didn't take notes on the dizzying array of different models I've seen over the years, but at least some of them (actually, all of them that I've seen) were made of particle board. To wit:

Beneteau Oceanis 50

What’s sorta wood? Well, it’s sort of wood. The real name is Alpilignum and it’s a reconstituted wood veneer.

This delaminating of the veneer from the wood is already happening on the friend's Jenneau, which is 2009. His dog scratched the companionway ladder and moisture is already getting underneath. He'll need to replace it in a few years, I suspect.

Re: headliner. Maybe my theory about the cause was wrong (maybe), but these photos illustrates exactly what I was talking about:

Beneteau First 235: Headliner Hell - IS this Foam or toxic waste?

You'll have to take my word on the sailing characteristics on Jenny 42DS. I still can't figure out why it happens, but I did find this reference to the 42DS.

Yachting World said the Jeanneau 42DS “was severely overpowered in the gusts under full sail” and Cruising World said “In the puffs, the boat was definitely overpowered and required the helmsman to bear away to keep it on its feet.”

I don't know how that translates to main alone, if in fact it has any bearing.

Btw, I have never seen a Tayana 37 with vinle headliner. Find one and show me.

None of this should be construed as a particular dislike for the aforementioned boats, I am only trying to add some observations to the discussion.
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:04   #410
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
...The other issue I have seen is with the quality of the interior, which is typically composite board covered by a plastic veneer -- inevitably, that arrangement starts to go bad in a marine environment.
Are you aware what other makes/models use composite board? I agree, that is a horrible material to use in any humid, nevermind marine, environment.

Thanks for any comments... I am trying to narrow down my list of potentials, which is narrow anyways me being 6'4".
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:23   #411
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Btw, I have never seen a Tayana 37 with vinle headliner. Find one and show me.
Maybe not, but I've been on a TY37 that was delaminating all over the deck, and I've since learned this is not an uncommon problem. ( this was not a woody deck). I can't speak to rotting bowsprits but that is also my concern.
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:27   #412
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Are you aware what other makes/models use composite board? I agree, that is a horrible material to use in any humid, nevermind marine, environment.

Thanks for any comments... I am trying to narrow down my list of potentials, which is narrow anyways me being 6'4".
My mid-80's Bene interior is marine plywood--not an inch of composite board anywhere.
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:34   #413
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Maybe not, but I've been on a TY37 that was delaminating all over the deck, and I've since learned this is not an uncommon problem. I can't speak to rotting bowsprits but that is also my concern.
I have heard of delamination issues ... mostly in newer boats. Of course, there's the cored teak hulls in the TY37 (and numerous other boats of the era), but that's a known problem.

Rotten bowsprits are also a concern, although I had mine off (when I record the deck) last summer and stripped and repainted it -- no problem. This is a 1978 boat that has circumnavigated. So, I think that's probably a maintenance issue too.

If you ask me, I will be quite forthcoming on the build issues concerning Tayana 37s, but again Tayanas aren't the subject of this thread -- Beneteaus, Jenneaus and Bavarias are. I happen to have some (albeit limited) experience with the first two and I am trying to contribute what little knowledge I have.
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:38   #414
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
...

Rotten bowsprits are also a concern, although I had mine off (when I record the deck) last summer and stripped and repainted it -- no problem. This is a 1978 boat that has circumnavigated. So, I think that's probably a maintenance issue too.
This is a bit OT, and perhaps naive on the surface, but do you have any idea of associated costs with replacement of a bowsprit, and how most TY owners go about this task?
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:46   #415
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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This is a bit OT, and perhaps naive on the surface, but do you have any idea of associated costs with replacement of a bowsprit, and how most TY owners go about this task?
I have heard of some just having a new one built. They aren't terribly complicated, so in theory shouldn't be too difficult.

Mine is solid teak. I think some were mahoghany, so they're probably more prone to rot.

I have a friend who has a 40-year-old (Japanese-built) Mariner 31 who had to replace his bowsprit, so what we're really talking about is old wooden boats (or wood parts of boats). Some stuff will just need replacement.
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Old 27-05-2011, 12:49   #416
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Jeanneau have traditionally been much more performance orientated part of the beneteau group. I delivered several 42DS, s through some very very hairy weather. They are excellent blue water boats. Nor have I seen any veneer issues. All veneers suffer if broken.

The second thing is forget about all the models it's completely irrelevant. Beneteau reuse designs and hulls and change interiors to suit the current fashion. But what you get are brand leading equipment like Volvo or yanmar, lewmar, harken and selden, facnor. Good basic construction. I've owned two benes and delivered many. You can't go wrong ask markj

The fact is that the US centric fascination with old outdated designs produced by manufacturers that usually go bust is not shared by the world. Given that European and Australians and kiwis make up the majority of circumnavigators they don't bother with this search for the " past"

Even the swedes have all converted to this thinking.

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Old 27-05-2011, 12:58   #417
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Such petty bickering going on in this thread, sad.

I read a statement a page or so back about first hand knowledge and how owners have stopped posting in the thread. It's because after a while on CF if you have a "production" boat you get a little tired of being told how crappy it is.

On the other hand some of these threads do lead to a change in views sometimes once someone gets past all their internet "learning".

Heck on the first page of this thread, back on 12/18/2009, I kind of trashed the topic named boats. Then as time when by I took a new look at the whole trash talked about about boats and now have a nice Hunter 410.
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Old 27-05-2011, 13:01   #418
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Jeanneau have traditionally been much more performance orientated part of the beneteau group. I delivered several 42DS, s through some very very hairy weather. They are excellent blue water boats. Nor have I seen any veneer issues. All veneers suffer if broken.

The second thing is forget about all the models it's completely irrelevant. Beneteau reuse designs and hulls and change interiors to suit the current fashion. But what you get are brand leading equipment like Volvo or yanmar, lewmar, harken and selden, facnor. Good basic construction. I've owned two benes and delivered many. You can't go wrong ask markj

The fact is that the US centric fascination with old outdated designs produced by manufacturers that usually go bust is not shared by the world. Given that European and Australians and kiwis make up the majority of circumnavigators they don't bother with this search for the " past"

Even the swedes have all converted to this thinking.

Dave
This experience I had with "main alone" on the 42DS was, admittedly, the very first time I was on the boat. My buddy had just purchased her and we left the dock and set out into the Chess. We agreed, we'd start with the main alone and then, when he felt comfortable with the helm, roll out the genny. We hauled out the main and onto a beat. I tweaked until all the leech tails were flying and the shape looked good. This is from memory, but I recall we were making about 2-3 knots in 15 knots of wind. It baffled us both. Then we headed up, rolled out the genny, fell off and viola! 6.5-7 knots.
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Old 27-05-2011, 13:06   #419
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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This experience I had with "main alone" on the 42DS was, admittedly, the very first time I was on the boat. My buddy had just purchased her and we left the dock and set out into the Chess. We agreed, we'd start with the main alone and then, when he felt comfortable with the helm, roll out the genny. We hauled out the main and onto a beat. I tweaked until all the leech tails were flying and the shape looked good. This is from memory, but I recall we were making about 2-3 knots in 15 knots of wind. It baffled us both. Then we headed up, rolled out the genny, fell off and viola! 6.5-7 knots.

Does this really mean anything other than as it applies to that specific model? Lots of boats sail well with the main alone, and some with the genny alone? Just a boat designed balance thingie.
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Old 27-05-2011, 13:14   #420
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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On the other hand some of these threads do lead to a change in views sometimes once someone gets past all their internet "learning".
1) Sometimes you have to have a viewpoint as a frame of reference to be able to learn and experience from.

2) I don't devalue "internet" learning either. It served a purpose. And you can weight than with all your real world experience too - in other boats and subjects.

3) Too often people take things as black and white. ts not a matter of being right or wrong. There are plenty of "experienced" people here in the forum who's opinions I don't trust and have proven to me that they are not as valuable as their reputations make you believe. I'd say thats one thing that came to me recently and I take away. However, if you look beyond the surface of things there is something always to be gained. You need to look beyond the black and white - beyond being right or wrong - and adjust as necessary.

I know I will continue to change my opinions from time to time. Thats just the nature of living. You don't define yourself by mistakes, failures, or past views. Today is all that should count.
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