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Old 25-05-2011, 16:30   #346
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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G'Day Pablo,

Mate, it seems that you are not listening to what nearly everyone is saying: either style boat has done and can do again exactly what you are proposing. Each has its advantages and its disadvantages, and only you, with the help of a surveyor at purchase time, can make the decision as to which suits YOU best.

And even if the unlikely person who has owned and actively cruised in both style boats should front up, all he can tell you is what HE liked/disliked, not give useful advice about what is good for YOU.

So, Pablo, if you are ever going to live up to your handle of "The Sailor", you gotta learn to evaluate things on your own, things like what boat is best for you, whether to go to sea on a given day, what route to attempt, where to anchor (and with which anchor!!) and all the myriad decisions needed each day whilst cruising. Your overall plan seems ok, by the way, so press onward. And good luck in it all...

Cheers,

Thank you Jim, I just really wanted to get as much feed back as possible before taking the big step, a man who nevers asks a question is a fool in my book!
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Old 25-05-2011, 20:55   #347
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Having just come through a storm scrum against a steel houseboat 10,000 lbs heavier than me, I can say - in the case of collisions - thicker is definitely better. Surveyor deployed by insurance company's exact words: "If this had been a Hunter or a Beneteau, it would be at the bottom now."

Take it for what it's worth ...
Did the surveyor give you an indication how your boat would have faired had the collision been with a naval destroyer. My guess just as quickly as one of those Ben/Jen's so what is the point. Most who sale the worlds oceans are aware that their boat can sink given the right conditions otherwise we would all stay on land. Modern boats are strong and way ahead of old boats in construction and materials making the product far better. Some will never be convinced no matter what.
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Old 26-05-2011, 05:19   #348
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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but 1/4" steel or alum could of.

Lets see how well your Tayana is @ 100 tons per sq metre on a rogue near the south of africa

AGAIN, i said isn't ALWAYS better. Enjoy your SLOW dog. Plus this is drift. We are speaking of Jens and bens and bavs via OP.

pound for pound is not the same as inch per inch (MASS) or that metal doesnt depend on directional patterns in the fibers to add strength. Fire away. I have no idea why anyone would have a tayana in the chess anyway
Nothing to "fire away" about. The question wasn't about the boat, it was about fiberglass and whether "thicker" is better. In a collision, it is. Full stop. I believe that was the only point I was trying to make.

Since you extended it to an attack on my choice of boat, I will say that my TY37, with a SA/D of 17.3, does just fine in the Chessie's light airs. In any case, why would you presume that the Chesapeake is my ultimate cruising grounds?
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Old 26-05-2011, 05:42   #349
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Nothing to "fire away" about. The question wasn't about the boat, it was about fiberglass and whether "thicker" is better. It is. Full stop.

As for the Tayanas, no defense needed. They are what they are and they ain't as slow as you think they are - thanks to a SA/D of 17.3. But then, that's not what we're talking about, anyway, is it?
it WASNT just about fiberglass. It WAS about reducing hull thickness and WAS about weight reduction and WAS about retaining the same strength as those other materials. The point WAS and IS that with modern improvements in materials and design you DONT have to make boats that look like something out of an 1860's marine catalog, Or look like a Tayana or a Westsail. And the "proven" history here is there are a LOT more boats with those modern improvements sailing the ocean blue today quite fine and in all conditions than your misguided belief in the only good boat is a fiberglass one made 1 foot thick from stem to stern. It just doesnt hold up to reality.

There is no "better" to be attained because "better" doesnt exist for any purpose - speed or strength.

T37 SA/D = 16.27 in my research
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Old 26-05-2011, 06:07   #350
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
it WASNT just about fiberglass. It WAS about reducing hull thickness and WAS about weight reduction and WAS about retaining the same strength as those other materials. The point WAS and IS that with modern improvements in materials and design you DONT have to make boats that look like something out of an 1860's marine catalog, Or look like a Tayana or a Westsail. And the "proven" history here is there are a LOT more boats with those modern improvements sailing the ocean blue today quite fine and in all conditions than your misguided belief in the only good boat is a fiberglass one made 1 foot thick from stem to stern. It just doesnt hold up to reality.

There is no "better" to be attained because "better" doesnt exist for any purpose - speed or strength.

T37 SA/D = 16.27 in my research
Well, then, your research on that score is wrong, too:

http://www.ftp.tognews.com/Publicati...37_bws0697.pdf

The Tayana 37 - information for cruising sailors

I am fully aware that there are other issues that play into the strength of fiberglass, such as the method of layup, the quality of the resin and the strength of the matt. But there is also some basic physics involved and all other factors accounted for, a too-thin layup (or a cored layup) will not be as strong as a thicker, solid one.

I also cast no judgement on whether thicker was better in all cases. For collisions yes, for weight, no.

Can you try to keep the tone civil, please?
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Old 26-05-2011, 06:27   #351
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Ive been involved in sailing for about 12 months, worked hard, got my Day Skipper and continue to read and learn as much as I can! This forum has been brilliant for me and ive had many questions answered here! The sailing comunity strike me as a terrific bunch who try to help one another.....however, the nonsense that goes on between Mono and Multi hull owners and production and classic is just ridiculous! Lighten up guys, you have a wonderful life that many others cant enjoy.....I value very much the opinions of others more experienced than myself, the knowledge that you guys share with people like myself is really important as we prepare to buy a boat, so try to be friends...and keep the info comeing, we love it.........
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Old 26-05-2011, 06:40   #352
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pirate Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Pablo.... you've no chance mate..
Thats like asking a Rangers fan to be nice to a Celtic fan... or a Man United fan to talk politely to Liverpool fan on matters Football... or for the Americans say the Red Sox being nice to the Yankee's... they all love the game equally... they just hate each others choices/opinions...
Now and then you'll run across the 'Boatosexuals'... a strange lot who swing both ways...
They just take the piss out of everyone...
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Old 26-05-2011, 06:49   #353
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Pablo.... you've no chance mate..
Thats like asking a Rangers fan to be nice to a Celtic fan... or a Man United fan to talk politely to Liverpool fan on matters Football... or for the Americans say the Red Sox being nice to the Yankee's... they all love the game equally... they just hate each others choices/opinions...
Now and then you'll run across the 'Boatosexuals'... a strange lot who swing both ways...
They just take the piss out of everyone...

Ha, ha....love it ¨boatosexuals¨, ha, ha!! Might use that on the show!! By the way, do u know a guy called Gordon Allen? He was our instructor for Day Skipper, what a guy, remeinded me of John Cleese...but what a great sailor, ex forces!!! Are you still in Portugal? We have uped our marketing on the property and there are people viewing, ive a sneaky feeling it will go before the end of the summer! May travel to Portugal as there seem to be a lot of boats there for sale at better prices than Spain? Would be good to meet up for a sherbert! Did that Stern 41 ever go, i saw sale pending a while back, looked a nice boat! Keep your eye out, you know more or less what we are looking for and budget! Cheers, Pablo!
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:02   #354
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Can you try to keep the tone civil, please?
Gentlemen, Pablo is after a yacht. Lets keep this to the facts, personal recommendations and advice that you would want to give to another member of your family.

Peter
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:08   #355
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pirate Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Ha, ha....love it ¨boatosexuals¨, ha, ha!! Might use that on the show!! By the way, do u know a guy called Gordon Allen? He was our instructor for Day Skipper, what a guy, remeinded me of John Cleese...but what a great sailor, ex forces!!! Are you still in Portugal? We have uped our marketing on the property and there are people viewing, ive a sneaky feeling it will go before the end of the summer! May travel to Portugal as there seem to be a lot of boats there for sale at better prices than Spain? Would be good to meet up for a sherbert! Did that Stern 41 ever go, i saw sale pending a while back, looked a nice boat! Keep your eye out, you know more or less what we are looking for and budget! Cheers, Pablo!
Yup... still hanging between Porto and Lisbon... decided to do a proper job on the boat instead of fix n flog... she'll do me till I win the Lottery...
Don't know the name.. may know the face but likely not as I tend to skip Gib these days... have not been in there for matbe 10yrs... nearly went in last years but changed my mind before check in... prefered the old chaotic days... the atmosphere's gone...
The Stearn went... if I see anything I'll give you a shout.. fingers crossed your pub sells.. have you considered an Ad in Sur...
Bar for sale/Px for awesome live aboard... why have just bills.. when you can have an income as well...
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:19   #356
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Yup... still hanging between Porto and Lisbon... decided to do a proper job on the boat instead of fix n flog... she'll do me till I win the Lottery...
Don't know the name.. may know the face but likely not as I tend to skip Gib these days... have not been in there for matbe 10yrs... nearly went in last years but changed my mind before check in... prefered the old chaotic days... the atmosphere's gone...
The Stearn went... if I see anything I'll give you a shout.. fingers crossed your pub sells.. have you considered an Ad in Sur...
Bar for sale/Px for awesome live aboard... why have just bills.. when you can have an income as well...

You wont belive this, I have just sent my advert for next weeks Sur in English, gonna try Daltons Weekly in the UK as well......still got courses to take, engine, medical, fire, saftety, etc....still humming about what boat to look for, we hit some pretty big swells and driving sheet rain off Morocco last week in that Bavaria 44, I was at the helm and it seemed fine, but then ive never been out in a classic so would not know the difference..
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:21   #357
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Did the surveyor give you an indication how your boat would have faired had the collision been with a naval destroyer. My guess just as quickly as one of those Ben/Jen's so what is the point. Most who sale the worlds oceans are aware that their boat can sink given the right conditions otherwise we would all stay on land. Modern boats are strong and way ahead of old boats in construction and materials making the product far better. Some will never be convinced no matter what.
I'm not sure what your point is, here. Are you saying that because my fiberglass boat would not survive a collision with a warship, I shouldn't expect it to survive a collision with my marina neighbor either?

As for newer boats being better, well that all depends. I certainly wouldn't generalize, to wit:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:27   #358
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Did the surveyor give you an indication how your boat would have faired had the collision been with a naval destroyer. My guess just as quickly as one of those Ben/Jen's so what is the point. Most who sale the worlds oceans are aware that their boat can sink given the right conditions otherwise we would all stay on land. Modern boats are strong and way ahead of old boats in construction and materials making the product far better. Some will never be convinced no matter what.


OK, Ive a question, When you say ¨¨modern boats are strong and way ahead of older boats in Construction¨¨ what age a boat are you talking about, do you mean a boat from the last 10 years and newer....or do you mean a boat 5 years or less! Thanks, Pablo
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Old 26-05-2011, 07:40   #359
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Pablo... there have been a few 'Golden Ages'... 60's the 1st was the overbuilt solid glass hulls and decks... then it went downhill for a while as they started experimenting to try and reduce costs...
Late 70's things improved as quality and production lines complimented each other... 80's to mid 90's great boats...
since then the cost cutting has begun again... started with interiors and joinery fastened with undersized screws then as one goes deeper backing pads that should be there are not...
When you look... look beyond the shiny hull and gleaming brightwork.. look at what holds it together..
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Old 26-05-2011, 08:34   #360
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

But to be fair, in the "good old days" they also built a lot of rubbish - for exactly the same reasons that businesses use in the present day. and will in the future. It's cheaper. it's what the market demands, they think it will be ok, it will be ok for a few years, 10 years on it ain't my problem......oh, and poor design, poor management and idiots on site.

But overall, IMO (blah blah blah) I think a lot less making things up as they go along than in the good old days - but that don't automatically involve good answers 10 years on.
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