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Old 25-05-2011, 11:34   #331
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Breakaway View Post
In reply to your question -it gets down to the condition and outfitting of specific boats. A 10 y.o. production boat poorly maintained may need more refitting than a 30 y.o. classic that has been well maintained and fitted-out for passage making. Until you have specific boats to compare, it's all academic!
Thanks, this is were I was hopeing this would go, lets imagine there are 2 boats, the classic 25yrs and the production 8 yrs old, both in good condition with a similar price tag of 90,000 euros and well fited out! Your plan is to sail from Europe and then spend a couple of years Island jumping in the Carribean, what would you go with? I was also guessing that production boat spares are easily available en route, perhaps not so with a 25yr old classic? Is it correct that the hull of the classic would normaly be thicker than that of a production boat? Thanks!
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Old 25-05-2011, 11:46   #332
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by pablothesailor View Post
Thanks, this is were I was hopeing this would go, lets imagine there are 2 boats, the classic 25yrs and the production 8 yrs old, both in good condition with a similar price tag of 90,000 euros and well fited out! Your plan is to sail from Europe and then spend a couple of years Island jumping in the Carribean, what would you go with? I was also guessing that production boat spares are easily available en route, perhaps not so with a 25yr old classic? Is it correct that the hull of the classic would normaly be thicker than that of a production boat? Thanks!
1) Thicker isn't always better.

2) What makes you think spares are different on a newer boat than an older boat?? THis isn't like a car where you walk into a dealer and pick up parts made for a particular model! Either parts are custom made for the boat - old or new, or the parts themselves are on their own old or new. A new engine is a new engine regardless of the boat being old vs new! You will pay for a custom piece of equipment, or you will have to find parts for it off the shelf...the boat has nothing to do with it. A well fitted OLDER boat with NEW electronics will serve just as well.

3) Depreciation on a newer boat vs old is an issue

4) Liability insurance is another issue

5) Market value is another.

again id go newer because of design improvements.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:01   #333
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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1) Thicker isn't always better.

2) What makes you think spares are different on a newer boat than an older boat?? THis isn't like a car where you walk into a dealer and pick up parts made for a particular model! Either parts are custom made for the boat - old or new, or the parts themselves are on their own old or new. A new engine is a new engine regardless of the boat being old vs new! You will pay for a custom piece of equipment, or you will have to find parts for it off the shelf...the boat has nothing to do with it. A well fitted OLDER boat with NEW electronics will serve just as well.

3) Depreciation on a newer boat vs old is an issue

4) Liability insurance is another issue

5) Market value is another.

again id go newer because of design improvements.


I just thought that the newer production boat spares would be more widely available!

Guess the older classic holds its value better?

Not sure about the insurance?
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:06   #334
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
1) Thicker isn't always better.

2) What makes you think spares are different on a newer boat than an older boat?? THis isn't like a car where you walk into a dealer and pick up parts made for a particular model! Either parts are custom made for the boat - old or new, or the parts themselves are on their own old or new. A new engine is a new engine regardless of the boat being old vs new! You will pay for a custom piece of equipment, or you will have to find parts for it off the shelf...the boat has nothing to do with it. A well fitted OLDER boat with NEW electronics will serve just as well.

3) Depreciation on a newer boat vs old is an issue

4) Liability insurance is another issue

5) Market value is another.

again id go newer because of design improvements.
Having just come through a storm scrum against a steel houseboat 10,000 lbs heavier than me, I can say - in the case of collisions - thicker is definitely better. Surveyor deployed by insurance company's exact words: "If this had been a Hunter or a Beneteau, it would be at the bottom now."

Take it for what it's worth ...
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:08   #335
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

liability is easy to get anywhere as far as i know-- so far has proven true enough. cannot get comprehensive sans survey....i got liability easily in mexico....
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:14   #336
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

What spares do you think are only available at a dealer or manufacturer and in any way will give you trouble?

Parts on a boat are third party - spars, rigging, sails, electronics, plumbing, engine - all made by other companies. If not, they are easily replaceable with parts that ARE made by 3rd parties. Better designed ones.

Considering your original parms to this question, a properly outfitted old boat at that price will most likely have newer peripherals. Electronics also go outdated quickly - every 5 years; 10 at most. So an OLD boat with OLD electronics is as good as a NEW boat with OLD electronics. The boat has nothing to do with the peripherals in it. The peripherals and parts have more to do with OUTFITTING costs.

As for holding value...depends on the model not just the manufacturer...and how the boat is valued by the customers out there looking to buy.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:19   #337
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Having just come through a storm scrum against a steel houseboat 10,000 lbs heavier than me, I can say - in the case of collisions - thicker is definitely better. Surveyor deployed by insurance company's exact words: "If this had been a Hunter or a Beneteau, it would be at the bottom now."

Take it for what it's worth ...
Oh sure, so relative to what? And how about a million other boats as well that aren't steel or alum. I'd also add that thick fiberglass isn't as all its made up to be in the wrong conditions.

Thicker isn't always better - consider speed. consider also carbon fiber.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:23   #338
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

spares are fabricated bits that come from easily affordable places.
electronix come from a dealer or from ebay. ebay works well.
newer is not always better. some older stuff works just as well-- take the garmin 498 gps, for example-- has ability to hook up with ais, as well as being a decent gps system--not 3 d, but who cares??!!!
. LOL
i was fortunate that my formosa came with new rig, has radar, gps, fishfinder, and simrad autopilot when i bought her---- is something to consider, as autopilots are not all the same. wheel pilots sukk on boats like mine.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:29   #339
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Talking Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Oh sure, so relative to what? And how about a million other boats as well that aren't steel or alum. I'd also add that thick fiberglass isn't as all its made up to be in the wrong conditions.
I expected scoffing. That's Ok. I was there, you were not.

The force of the two hulls coming together was nothing short of incredible and no, 1/4" of fiberglass would not have cut it.

But feel free to scoff away.

... and, pound for pound, fiberglass is 3x stronger than steel.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:53   #340
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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The force of the two hulls coming together was nothing short of incredible and no, 1/4" of fiberglass would not have cut it..
but 1/4" steel or alum could of.

Lets see how well your Tayana is @ 100 tons per sq metre on a rogue near the south of africa

AGAIN, i said isn't ALWAYS better. Enjoy your SLOW dog. Plus this is drift. We are speaking of Jens and bens and bavs via OP.

pound for pound is not the same as inch per inch (MASS) or that metal doesnt depend on directional patterns in the fibers to add strength. Fire away. I have no idea why anyone would have a tayana in the chess anyway
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Old 25-05-2011, 14:01   #341
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Its a budget of around 90,000 euros to spend on a 25yr old classic or a 7-10yr old production.......when I did my Day Skipper course last week one guy insisted that the boat we were on (7yr old Bavaria 44) would not be comfortable on ocean crossing, nore would it be long term solid in heavy crossings! Its been difficult to get an answer really, am looking I guess for the person who has traveled in both types of boats to share the experience!
I, like most of us who come to sailing in middle age, have had to ask and answer this question to my satisfaction. It may be true that MarkJ has successfully gone around in a Bene 393, but should I try it? A realistic assessment of my sailing experience shows that Mark has alot more sailing experience than me. I want to compensate for my lack of experience a little bit by doing it in a specialist medium to heavy displacement cruising hull. Most of the people asking the "production boat for cruising questions" seem to be fairly new to offshore sailing. My suggestion is to realistically assess your experience level. The less you have the more your should heed the conservative opinions on this thread urging you to go for the sturdy old cruising bost.

Greg
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Old 25-05-2011, 14:13   #342
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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I, like most of us who come to sailing in middle age, have had to ask and answer this question to my satisfaction. It may be true that MarkJ has successfully gone around in a Bene 393, but should I try it? A realistic assessment of my sailing experience shows that Mark has alot more sailing experience than me. I want to compensate for my lack of experience a little bit by doing it in a specialist medium to heavy displacement cruising hull. Most of the people asking the "production boat for cruising questions" seem to not have a lot of experience. My suggestion is to realistically assess your experience level. The less you have the more your should heed the conservative opinions on this thread urging you to go for the sturdy old cruising bost.

Greg
Good advice, I am new to sailing but have studied hard in the past 6 months, got my Day Skipper, navigation, etc, plan to study up to Coastal and maybe Yachtmaster! Also plan to live on board in Gibraltar for 3 months once ive got my boat to get to know it with daily sailing! Am finding it difficult to make up my mind as to what boat i should go shopping for! I will try to sail on other boats to get a feel, the charter before buy is not going to be an option! the day is coming where i need to know what to look for! We will be 3 people most of the time, sometimes 2, there will be an Atlantic crossing and then hopefuly a couple of years in the Carribean, etc, am thinking 40-44ft (I took Day Skipper on a Bavaria 44ft which i found comfortable to operate) but what boat would suit our trip
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Old 25-05-2011, 16:06   #343
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

G'Day Pablo,

Mate, it seems that you are not listening to what nearly everyone is saying: either style boat has done and can do again exactly what you are proposing. Each has its advantages and its disadvantages, and only you, with the help of a surveyor at purchase time, can make the decision as to which suits YOU best.

And even if the unlikely person who has owned and actively cruised in both style boats should front up, all he can tell you is what HE liked/disliked, not give useful advice about what is good for YOU.

So, Pablo, if you are ever going to live up to your handle of "The Sailor", you gotta learn to evaluate things on your own, things like what boat is best for you, whether to go to sea on a given day, what route to attempt, where to anchor (and with which anchor!!) and all the myriad decisions needed each day whilst cruising. Your overall plan seems ok, by the way, so press onward. And good luck in it all...

Cheers,
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Old 25-05-2011, 16:22   #344
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For the interior... the Beneteau...
For the sailing ability... the Jeaneau...
Both are well set up on deck.. and down below.. its just the Bendi has the edge for living space...
The Jeaneau... a great sail...
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Old 25-05-2011, 16:26   #345
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Re: Can Jeanneau, Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean-Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by pablothesailor View Post
Thanks, this is were I was hopeing this would go, lets imagine there are 2 boats, the classic 25yrs and the production 8 yrs old, both in good condition with a similar price tag of 90,000 euros and well fited out! Your plan is to sail from Europe and then spend a couple of years Island jumping in the Carribean, what would you go with? I was also guessing that production boat spares are easily available en route, perhaps not so with a 25yr old classic? Is it correct that the hull of the classic would normaly be thicker than that of a production boat? Thanks!
Pablo, I would buy the later European yacht. Why? because with a couple of years experience cruising across the Atlantic and then round the Carib, you will meet and see so many other yachts you are likely to change you mind.

If you don't, but instead decide the 44 Bav is the best thing since sliced bread, great you have the right boat. If you decide you need a long keeled 25 year old yacht, then the Bav will be easier to sell.

That said, if it was my E90k, then I would buy this, a sort of half way compromise:

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

Either way, take your time and enjoy the search

Pete
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