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Old 02-01-2010, 15:05   #241
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Ibrgic,
Glad you came up with an answer to all this....You do see things from one extreme to the other.. and ther is a lot of Grey area to deal with..But it does provide a number of different outlooks on a subject... Happy hunting...........
R.
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Old 02-01-2010, 17:15   #242
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I think that's overstating the depreciation argument a bit. Asking prices for used B49's are nowhere near $80K less than what we paid in August 2008. No doubt new boats depreciate for a the first few years, so if you buy new and sell within a couple of years you'll have to endure that. But if you keep the boat for X number of years, the depreciation probably starts to become less significant.

You're taking a lot of heat in this thread, and a decent amount of it unfairly. That said, after all this back and forth, have you changed your view at all? Even a touch?
No, I really haven't changed my views. IMHO some production boats can be perfectly fine if you set them up properly. In Jamestown there are plenty of Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas. I understand why people like them. They certainly get there before I do, and the accomodations are very nice.

But there is an inherent risk with a less sturdily built fin keeler with an unprotected spade rudder. For example, I know my keel isn't going to fall off. I don't even have to check the keel bolts because there aren't any. Fin keels can come off. It happens once in a blue moon, but it happens.

Another example: last year I was sailing out of a narrow cove in Maine and hit something. There was a shudder, then a scraping sound, then nothing. Turns out it was a submerged tree stump that had washed in with the tide. We could have picked this up on the Interphase sonar at the nav station, but we were all up on deck watching some seals. My boat rode up and over, with no consequences. I hesitate to think what would have happened with a less overbuilt fin keeler.

I have made compromises that some would not be willing to make. My boat isn't very fast and my cockpit is small. The accomodations are limited, and I had to buy the microwave separately at Walmart.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:37   #243
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No, I really haven't changed my views. IMHO some production boats can be perfectly fine if you set them up properly. In Jamestown there are plenty of Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas. I understand why people like them. They certainly get there before I do, and the accomodations are very nice.

But there is an inherent risk with a less sturdily built fin keeler with an unprotected spade rudder. For example, I know my keel isn't going to fall off. I don't even have to check the keel bolts because there aren't any. Fin keels can come off. It happens once in a blue moon, but it happens.

Another example: last year I was sailing out of a narrow cove in Maine and hit something. There was a shudder, then a scraping sound, then nothing. Turns out it was a submerged tree stump that had washed in with the tide. We could have picked this up on the Interphase sonar at the nav station, but we were all up on deck watching some seals. My boat rode up and over, with no consequences. I hesitate to think what would have happened with a less overbuilt fin keeler.

I have made compromises that some would not be willing to make. My boat isn't very fast and my cockpit is small. The accomodations are limited, and I had to buy the microwave separately at Walmart.
I know what you mean. We used to have a Bayfield 36, and that thing was unbelievably tough. Full keel, heavy displacement (20,000lbs at 36'). And flat out beautiful, at least to me. We never worried about weather, or anything else frankly. And we used to snug up to shore to drop the hook at mid tide or so, and sit happily in the mud when the tide went out. Then we had two kids, and she just wasn't big enough considering the amount of time we spend aboard. We then had another higher-end boat before we went with the Bene, and though considerably larger than the Bayfield, she had two cabins, and now we need (want) three. So, I know what you mean, but I'll tell ya, there's nothing better than getting to the harbor first and being the most comfortable once you get there! We're going to show you exactly what we mean this coming summer.

I'm not so worried about the fin keel/spade rudder issue. You certainly are right with the shortcomings that you point out, but the performance difference is beyond compare. In terms of keels falling off, I guess it is theoretically possible, but it happens one in one million boats, and it's just about always an issue of bad maintenance or a bad repair. It's just not a real issue.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:57   #244
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
No, I really haven't changed my views. IMHO some production boats can be perfectly fine if you set them up properly. In Jamestown there are plenty of Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas. I understand why people like them. They certainly get there before I do, and the accomodations are very nice.

But there is an inherent risk with a less sturdily built fin keeler with an unprotected spade rudder. For example, I know my keel isn't going to fall off. I don't even have to check the keel bolts because there aren't any. Fin keels can come off. .......


....I have made compromises that some would not be willing to make. My boat isn't very fast and my cockpit is small. The accomodations are limited, and I had to buy the microwave separately at Walmart.

Why is it that your views feel like snobbery,


Firstly a valient is a production boat , built in a place at the time not known for its production standards. Secondly what exactly is a " blue water" boat and just exactly does it differ from a "production " boat.

Let me tell you, sure if you are a knowledable sailor, qualified NA and you design specifiy and build your "blue water" boat I might agree its a better boat. But just how is a valient or a say halberg rassy better. How do you really know, ( is it becuase the marketing guy said so or the brochure is more glossy. How do you know really what quality or materials or production processes have gone into your boat. Sure you spent 3x on the price it must be better ( funny that mercedes is one of the most unreliable cars around at 3x pricing). Just exactly how is the harken gear on a beneteau better or worse then the harken gear on a HR. How much of the 3x pricing is going to that expensive dealer network ( I know and its astonishing!! for high priced brands). how much of that 3x price is spent on exclusive brand marketing....

Dont give me the BS about skegs and keels, or anything else for that matter. ( See bavarias you tube on bashing its fin kneel unto rocks repeatidly). Failures in these areas are so rare that its almost useless to compare them. nobody buys a boat to withstand a blue moon event, they fact is you cant aanticipate what blue moon event will be. Also HR, Passport, Niajad and others have also bowed to the evititable and are going to fin and spade. Perhaps your Valient is a poorer blue water boat becuase it couldnt sail out of its own way in light airs and keeps getting stuck in the following storm!!

Sorry, if I took the money it cost to buy a HR or a morris or whatever and put half of it into a "production" boat , I 'd have a better " blue water boat". Whats exactly in these "blue water boats", yanmar engines, stern tube prop shafts, seldon rigs, harken.lewmar gear, funny that thats whats in "production boats". Trivial things like tankage/storage etc are merely a feature of user requirements, not a function of making it a "blue water boat". hanging a wind vane on the back does not make your valient a blue water boat. nor does simply fitting a 300 gallon water tank.


Modern boats are subject to more QC , more industry specifications , scantling rules, then ever before and its is proven, just look what people are doing with modern "production" boats, things that would not have been attempted in previous generation "production" boats. The modern stuff is demonstratably better

I'm not running down valient, Hr or anybrand and I have done deliveries in lots of these boats and benny,bavs etc. All will get you there, all have strengths and weaknesses
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:35   #245
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I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think that Curmudg has a Valiant.
Peace Out!
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:35   #246
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I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think that Curmudg has a Valiant.
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No, but I have a monitor lol.

My view is quite simple. You get what you pay for in this life.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:03   #247
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Now thats the first quality remark I've heard for you Curmudgeon,
"You get what you pay for in this life"
If you can live with a stitch and glue boat and a microwave from Wal Mart, the best to you, and I hope your future is bright, the wind be off your quarter, and your bottle of rum never run empty..
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:22   #248
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No, but I have a monitor lol.

My view is quite simple. You get what you pay for in this life.
It seems the main difference in our (contributors') viewpoints is the definition of 'payment' Nothing suggests that 'what you pay for' is paid for by putting out dollar bills; that payment could be through effort, accumulated knowledge & experience, time well spent, you name it...

Fair winds!

Sailndive
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:55   #249
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I'm with the 'Bene Boys'.

My 1984 Pearson 34 has crossed the North Atlantic five times with no fuss.

There has been much talk of the various methods of attaching the hull to the deck: bolting, screwing, glueing etc. Question: does anyone know of a (cruising) boat that has been lost through this joint failing? Lots of hearsay I know but actual knowledge of a particular vessel?

Curious,

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Old 05-01-2010, 06:07   #250
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There are some stories about wooden boats springing planks. We still go to sea in them.

I do recall some early GRP boats having flexing issues that caused leaking. Never heard of a sinking than wasn't brought on by something else.

At the risk of being annoying through repetition: it is really about the sailor.
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:46   #251
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Pearson 34

Rezzi,
Bill Shaw once stated that the Pearson boats were not offshore capable, that they needed modifcations to go offshore. What changes, if any did you make to go offshore? I'm interested because that is what I have.

Dale
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:27   #252
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Question: does anyone know of a (cruising) boat that has been lost through this joint failing? Lots of hearsay I know but actual knowledge of a particular vessel?
Story of two grounded boats.

I have seen a boat that struck the reef where the damage was obvious and over one quarter of the deck split completely from the hull. On closer inspection, the joint was riveted and some mastic was used to fill the joint gap. Since rivets were not size enough to be structurally important I would say the reason for the damage was from the use of wrong mastic. Probably would be different story if they used a 5200 or something yet stronger.

On another occasion I have seen a hull of Scandinavian build boat high and dry. This one got pounded every time the tide came up, which is twice a day, over two years. I cannot say what deck-to-hull technique was applied by the builders, but I suspect it was bolted-thru and glassed over. This boat had plenty of damage from the grounding and pounding but the hull and deck joint looked as good as new.

I believe one can make the joint in many ways, but the rivets/mastic are NOT one of them.

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Old 05-01-2010, 11:38   #253
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It seems the main difference in our (contributors') viewpoints is the definition of 'payment' Nothing suggests that 'what you pay for' is paid for by putting out dollar bills; that payment could be through effort, accumulated knowledge & experience, time well spent, you name it...

Fair winds!

Sailndive
Bingo. And further, even when you are only talking in monetary terms, the corollary to that famous saying is this: a lot of the time, you don't get what you pay for.

The most expensive thing, contrary to popular belief, is not always the best.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:44   #254
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Well, apart from quality of construction, there is the issue of comfort at sea.

I've learned from "accumulated knowledge and experience" that, for cruising, I prefer a boat with a comfortable motion in a chop. I also do not like spending day after day at 20+ degrees of heel. The Bavaria I sailed wasn't too bad, but the Beneteau was too tender for my taste.

I've also learned that you can get the exact same 800 watt microwave at Walmart that you can from West Marine, but at half the price.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:32   #255
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Well, apart from quality of construction, there is the issue of comfort at sea.

I've learned from "accumulated knowledge and experience" that, for cruising, I prefer a boat with a comfortable motion in a chop. I also do not like spending day after day at 20+ degrees of heel. The Bavaria I sailed wasn't too bad, but the Beneteau was too tender for my taste.

I've also learned that you can get the exact same 800 watt microwave at Walmart that you can from West Marine, but at half the price.
With all due respect, if you are sailing a Beneteau beyond about 15 degrees of heel, you may want to reconsider your boat trim.

On the other topic, I, too, have one of those Walmart microwaves....

Fair winds to you!

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