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Old 30-12-2009, 18:30   #211
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Hahahaha !!!

Is everyone so friendly because it is still almost Christmas, or has the world just gotten a little better?

Hugs,
b.
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Old 30-12-2009, 22:03   #212
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Do Beneteaus come with a lifetime supply of earplugs?
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Old 30-12-2009, 22:58   #213
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Can someone pass the butter please?
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Old 31-12-2009, 08:29   #214
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Do Beneteaus come with a lifetime supply of earplugs?
Yes, to drown out the noise from knuckleheads who don't really know what they're talking about.
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:08   #215
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there is something positive, about the Benneys and Jenneys and all the rest of the production boats out there floating around, They give the oppertunity to "Grab & Go" while the time is still avalable.. Many cruising boats are lost in dreams of disaray as the owners decided to buy an older, stiffer, and so called, better built boat and do the upgrades themselves and then go cruising.. These same people have lost interest in the retro-fit and have abandon the boat..
I have a 31 foot Offshore setting on the dock in front of me right now, the guy bought it at the same time as I bought mine and decided to do the work himself.. they moved aboard the boat 6 years ago and started working on it.... he pulled the teak deck, and from that time on the boat went down hill.. she ended up moving in with her mother, he lost interest, they devorced, he moved to LasVegas and the boat is slowly being eaten up and will at any time, drop to the bottom, giving up its life.. another dream gone down... while we're out cruising...
This isnt a rare case..as when Up in Coos Bay, when talking to to the ship yard manage, some of the boats that have been on the hard in some sort of repair, have gone through a dozzen owners over the years and still never hit the water..
And all this time, we're out cruising....
From the time we bought our boat, it was about 4 months before we were out cruising.. Thats what a production boat did for us.. Put it in the water and go...
Even though we have the money to buy a Shannon or an Oyster.. we didnt want to wait a year or two to go, and we didnt want to spend our free time re-building a boat,
our time is one of the inportant areas of our lives, and to walk up, grab the keys to a boat and go, had alot to do with it.. I dont want to rebuild a boat,
So, in the end, you can build your stitch and glue boat in your back yard, or do the retro-fit on that older Morris, but for me, My butts in a chair, my feet in the sand and a beer in my hand..
And while you're working on your boat and getting it ready to cruise.. I'm alreadythere!
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:13   #216
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That's a very good point.
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:45   #217
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Do Beneteaus come with a lifetime supply of earplugs?
The previous owner must have used them all up, I didn’t receive any earplugs with Layla J

Seriously; this topic has certainly lived up to expectation J the kind of stuff I usually avoid – much like “my favorite color is better than yours”, “my faith is ….”, etc., etc. J

FWIW, I have owned, maintained and sailed two Beneteaus since 1987; a 1983 First 30 (Group Pinot design) and currently, a 1997 Oceanis 461 (Bruce Farr design). Both, as in any boat regardless of price, have had positive and negatives. Here are my thoughts about these two boats I have been intimately familiar with:

Some of the positives:
The First 30 was a French, the Oceanis is (US) Carolina built version. Most of my sailing has been on the US Eastern seaboard, Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico. Seasonally in these areas, there’s a wide range of conditions; dead calm in certain times (between fronts) and quite rough in others (a stiff North wind against the Gulf Stream) – Both boats have sailed extremely well in these conditions and, having more of a racing background, I prefer a boat with better sailing performance. The Oceanis had to put up with several cases of multi-day, (25-40 kn, 10’+ seas) situations and handled them quite well – no earplugs were required J as the hull appears to have been built stoutly, as well as the rig appeared quite sound and of sufficient gauge. I do believe a properly tuned rig and good, trimmable sails made a significant difference in quality of life J

Believing in being a DIY, I do most/all my own repairs, sewing , bottom jobs, etc. I have not encountered a single blister in either of the hulls (over 20 bottom jobs, and I dive/scrub monthly) - Hate to admit to this J but have managed to run into some ‘bad’ things over the years, such as a sunken shrimpers outrigger, a floating log head on, and numerous others to mention – perhaps, I was lucky, I think luck is a major requirement in life J - with no serious consequence – just deep fiberglass wounds to repair.

The First 30 had a 18hp Volvo and the Oceanis has a 80hp Turbo Perkins. Over the years, aside from basic maintenance, haven’t experienced any issues in operation or sound level. Obviously, any diesel engine goes by the adage ‘use it or lose it’ – accordingly, I have tried to run the diesel motors as much as reasonable.

For their respective prices, I feel these two (small and larger) offered great value.

Now, some of the negatives:
Interior furniture (joinery and upholstery) of both boats lacked quality materials and attention to detail in assembly. There are numerous nuisances such as worthless cabinet door hasps, weak plastic drawer slides, sloppy cable runs, poorly installed optional equipment, dangerous (read: ready to come apart) galley sink drain elbows/hoses, insufficient fuel tankage, to name a few… The culprits behind many of these probably were the folks who commissioned the boat and a few definite Beneteau issues.

I don’t believe money can buy the perfect boat: While I may not have had any blisters on mine, I am sure there are a range of Beneteaus out there with them. I remember an expensive 40+ Tayana a friend of mine bought; ended up having to correct a serious layup issue: there were many thousands of tiny blisters throughout her bottom. One of the posters mentioned Valiants; certainly a fine boat – do you remember the range of Valiants built with fire retardant resin? They had several inches in diameter blisters even above water (!) Another good friend of mine sailed an older Allied Seawind, a wonderful boat – the deck core somehow absorbed water and rotted – incredible amount of character was built in repairing… Observing these, I can’t help but wonder if the old automobile manufacturers’ “Wednesday-built car” being better than the other days applies to boats. Perhaps, the time of year (moisture content or vacation mentality?) geographical location of the yard, dehumidifier or potential other equipment failures while the particular hull was laid up all could play a role in the final product quality. As far as –specifically- Beneteau is concerned, I can only hope the fact that they build thousands of boats sailed all over the world short and long range has been an avenue to improve their methods and not the opposite.

My preference has been to save the difference in cost and take care of the nuisances myself, my way (hopefully the correct way J ) So far, it seems to have worked.

Ultimately, I think one has to decide first ‘what kind of sailor s/he is?’: What type of sailing and where, expectations from the future boat, fast or slow, etc and decide on a boat design. Having decided on a particular boat design, research a wide range of boats that fit that design before making a decision. It would be absurd to compare an Oceanis with an Outisland. Every decision made comes with its compromises; I do agree that a skegged rudder may be better protected but I don’t agree that one must have one of those to sail long distances. Charter boats may be much cheaper but are you willing to risk the ‘unknown’? After all, you’ll never know the true history of the boat. How mechanically inclined are you? And, so on...

Hope 2010 brings all of you fair winds, good health and prosperity! (even if we may not agree on everything )

Sailndive
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Old 31-12-2009, 10:59   #218
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Yes. The point supported.

A project boat is for project oriented (and skilled!) people. Sailors should avoid and go for boats that call for minimum re-fit. There are many old boats that are shipshape and ready to go anywhere and many old boats that will not go anywhere anymore.

Building or extensive re-fit of a boat are like sailing, only one does not sail anywhere.

A new boat is a new boat is a new boat. A new Bavaria is probably a better choice than an old and run down Morris.

Still, we have to remember that one can buy a new HR, Bowman, Valiant, Morris, etc. too. So it might be more fair to compare say a new Bavaria 38 with say a new Rustler 36 than put a new Bene against a run down Pacific Seacraft.

b.
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Old 31-12-2009, 11:04   #219
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Cost / Benefit analysis and the Law of Diminishing Return...

1) Is a $500k boat twice as good as a $250k boat?

2) Is $50k savings worth a two years of labor and delay?

3) Will a new boat that cost $250k be worth less than an old boat that cost $100k plus an additionl $100k in refit after 5 years of use?

4) Is there any benefit to listening to self proclaimed experts who really don't have a clue and will say anything to get attention because their mommy always ignored them?
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Old 31-12-2009, 11:40   #220
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Sailndive's comment about Valient's blister problems goes to one of the toughest problems faced by boatbuilders - their suppliers. Some Valients were built by Uniflite who also built the Swift boats used in Vietnam. The government wanted fireproof resin (not quite sure it mattered given the other flammable stuff on those boats!). It seemed like a great idea so Uniflite used it in their pleasure boats. Everything was fine until the bond started to fail after 24 months. In some cases not just blisters but whole sheets of fiberglass. It drove Uniflite into bankruptcy.

Today, the problem is China. I know several boatbuilders who find that materials they order from suppliers with whom they've worked for decades suddenly change without any notice - often because the supplier is now sourcing from China. One boatbuilder I know showed me a shipment of E-glass from a top American manufacturer that looked "different" to the layup guys when the box was opened. The box and the numbers on the box were the same as the old box from the same supplier except for the letter "C" appended to a 16 digit numbers. A telephone call to the supplier revealed that, yes, it was from China but was just the same as the old stuff - made to the exact specification. The builder was unimpressed and sent the e-glass back.

If not for the sharp eyes and experience of a shop floor production guy at the boat builder, that boat would have been the first by this builder to have Chinese E-glass (Except how do you know for sure? Maybe the old stuff was from China too). We don't know if the Chinese E-glass was worse. Maybe it's better. What we we do know is that it was different. Whether that matters may not be known for 10 years or so.

I looked up Chinese fiberglass makers on the Internet. One of the biggest also makes gypsum wallboard (they got into fiberglass to make building insulation to go with their wall board). As many of you may have read, Chinese made wallboard has made thousands of houses in the US uninhabitable. Even the copper wiring in the walls is corroding away.

All of this suggests to me that fiberglass boats built more than 10 years ago before the global supply chains became so complex might be longer lived boats. Of course, there's no way to know.

Carl

PS - One trick the boat builder showed me. Carry a magnet in your pocket when working on your boat. Check every stainless screw and bolt. These days, it won't be long before that magnet sticks to a screw that came from a box marked "stainless".
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Old 31-12-2009, 12:01   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Wald View Post

Cost / Benefit analysis and the Law of Diminishing Return...

1) Is a $500k boat twice as good as a $250k boat?

2) Is $50k savings worth a two years of labor and delay?

3) Will a new boat that cost $250k be worth less than an old boat that cost $100k plus an additionl $100k in refit after 5 years of use?

4) Is there any benefit to listening to self proclaimed experts who really don't have a clue and will say anything to get attention because their mommy always ignored them?
Well, some answers here depend on whether you understand economy or just know the name of some economy laws. Others, on how you judge a self proclaimed expert from the real thing.

Anyway, below my non expert answers:

1) It may be, it may not be. What we know from economy lessons is that a 500k worth boat will not cost 250k, but a 250k worth boat can be sold at 500k, given good market and some marketing.

2) I do not know.

3) It depends on both the perceived and the intrinsic values of the compared boats as well as on how well (economy-wise) we chose the boat for the re-fit. You might never believe this, but there are people who buy 100k worth of sailboat, invest 50k in the re-fit and sell the outcome for 200k or so. Try to beat this re-selling any off the shelf production boats that was purchased with a credit plan and do it with a 50k GAIN ...

4) There may be. In the worst case scenario, we gain no new knowledge, exercise our patience, and offend nobody.

Cheers,
barnie
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Old 31-12-2009, 14:05   #222
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Well, the first rule is never buy a new boat, whether or not its a production boat or a high-end semi-custom boat. Late model used is almost always best, for two reasons. First, the boat has already depreciated. Second, if the the original owner was a responsible person, he/she has probably resolved many of the teething problems that tend to crop up with new systems.
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Old 31-12-2009, 15:57   #223
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Well, the first rule is never buy a new boat, whether or not its a production boat or a high-end semi-custom boat. Late model used is almost always best, for two reasons. First, the boat has already depreciated. Second, if the the original owner was a responsible person, he/she has probably resolved many of the teething problems that tend to crop up with new systems.
lf everyone followed that rule, in about a year every boat manufacturer would be out of business, and shortly thereafter every other marine supplier would go out of business, and then the pleasure boating business would be gone, and eventually there would be no boats at all. There are benefits to new boats, but of course the purchase price is higher initially (there is an argument that folks have made to me that over a 5 year period they are not more expensive, but I can't say I'm in a position to evaluate that cogently at this point).
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Old 31-12-2009, 17:44   #224
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lf everyone followed that rule, in about a year every boat manufacturer would be out of business, and shortly thereafter every other marine supplier would go out of business, and then the pleasure boating business would be gone, and eventually there would be no boats at all.
Wow, talk about a slippery slope. It's just like cars. The marketeers will make sure that some folks buy new boats, just as they do with cars. The trick is not to be taken in.
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Old 31-12-2009, 20:55   #225
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Late model used is almost always best,...
How about the same boat, new. Then say you do the one year break-in sailing her? So, what you get is the same 'late model' except you know her in-out. Better than counting on the ex-owners ability/willingness to break-in, fix the let downs and then tell us the whole story.

I would say late model very likely 'best value' if we do not have the time to break her in ourselves and find out what the boatyard may have failed to do right.

Another issue might be that over time the boat WILL lose some structural strength. So in case of an extreme project, new (and tested) is better.

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