Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.00 average. Display Modes
Old 28-12-2009, 20:13   #166
Registered User
 
CharlieCobra's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PNW
Boat: Knutson K-35 Yawl "Oh Joy" - Mariner 31 Ketch "Kahagon" - K-40 "Seasmoke" - 30' Sloop "Baccus"
Posts: 1,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Damn the Sydney to Hobart race has just finished if I had of known all I needed was more sail to win I would have entered. Gee wait till those billionaires find out that instead of all that plastic and carbon fibre they spent their money on all they needed was an old wooden boat (sorry 1961 Knutson Yawl) with lots of sail. Forget all those hull speed formula's etc just talk to Charlie!!

Those guys are way ahead of the curve with their canting keels and fat flat bottoms. They'd run circles around my old girl. Nothing quite like seeing one of those big fat race boats on plane at 30 knots....
__________________

__________________
CharlieCobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-12-2009, 22:18   #167
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
There are several Beneteaus and Bavarias in the current Sydney-Hobart race. Likewise, there are large numbers of Beneteaus and similar craft in the Newport-Bermuda Race each iteration, and there or more Beneteaus in the ARC than any other brand. These stats certainly are not the be all and end all, but they do stand in contrast to the notion that these boats are unsuitalbe to sail in oceans.
There are plenty of Chevys in NASCAR too, but on the inside they don't look much like the ones in the showroom.

Even the raceboats with "stock" hulls have custom carbon fiber spars, custom ruddders, custom keels and (most importantly) huge crews. Even so, boats drop out all the time when something breaks because they are being pushed so hard.
__________________

__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 07:39   #168
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California Coast
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 331
Posts: 680
Designers

The two primary designers for Beneteau are Farr and Finot.
__________________
Liam Wald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 09:30   #169
Registered User
 
danielgoldberg's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
There are plenty of Chevys in NASCAR too, but on the inside they don't look much like the ones in the showroom.

Even the raceboats with "stock" hulls have custom carbon fiber spars, custom ruddders, custom keels and (most importantly) huge crews. Even so, boats drop out all the time when something breaks because they are being pushed so hard.
That's not right at all. The boats I'm referring to are stock boats. Sure, they may be upgraded in terms of sails, safety equipment, gadgets, the owner's personal ideas for one thing or another, etc., but no more so than any boat gets upgraded before heading offshore. They certainly are NOT stock hulls with entirely different rigs, keels, rudders, etc., as you suggest That is just flat out wrong. I have some personal experience in this area, but don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself. These events have their own websites, and they list the fleets.

And you're right, boats do drop out of these events all the time, and many of those dropouts are very high-end, well-constructed, well-maintained boats. Likewise, many of the "stock" boats finish just fine. Not sure you can draw a lot from that observation, as the variables for why any given boat withdraws or finishes are too great.
__________________
danielgoldberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 09:48   #170
Senior Cruiser
 
Randyonr3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Beneteau FIRST 42
Posts: 1,836
Race boat with "stock" hull and carbon mast...Naaaaaaaaaa... The mast isnt the first to change when racing.. the hull is the first design area and everything else follows.. I've been racing for a number of years. and you've got things all backwards..
and the large crews, wasnt it said that the large crews are like flees on an elephants but.. Dosent help the elephant go to windward any better but it sur makes the flees feel good!
And this information comes from experance, as I've been racing within the Single Handed Society for a number of years.. you know, we're the ones that put on the Single Handed Transpac.
As a cruiser, aboard a Beneteau, I've logged more than a few thousand miles, without changing my interior, or my mast, and without a crew, oh and did I say, it was on a Beneteau.. And the wife and I are thinking of doing the TransPac in the double handed division... In our Beneteau.. Did I mention, we're going to be using our Beneteau..with the stock interior, and stock spars..
Wait a minute now, our is a First Series... The ones that lead in the changes for all beneteaus built.. and the First.. its a production boat.. Did I mention, its a Beneteau
__________________
Randyonr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 09:56   #171
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
My point is that you can't make inferences about a boat's suitability for cruising by looking at the same boat that has been set up for racing at great expense.

You are a cruising couple, middle aged, reasonably experienced, with a 300K budget plus investments that will provide a modest monthly fixed income that will cover cruising expenses. You are looking for a boat. Do you buy that brand new (or very late model) Bavaria or Beneteau, or a used Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Kelly Peterson, Ingrid or other purpose-designed cruising boat and use the balance of the 300K for a refit? That is the issue.

Some questions to ask yourself: 1) How much will the new boat depreciate the second I buy it? 2) What condition will the new boat be in in 10 years? 3) Will the components hold up under hard use? 4) What will its resale value be? 5) How will this boat handle a grounding? 6) Is the rig sturdy enough? 7) Will this boat recover from a knockdown? 8) How is the boat reefed, and what happens if a furler jams or a halyard gets tangled? Etc. Etc.

I think the above buying decision is pretty clear if this particular couple intends to do any serious cruising.

Randyonr3, let me repeat the question: is your boat an older Beneteau that may have been better built than the newer ones? Maybe you're the exception that proves the rule, or perhaps you are simply a better sailor than most of us.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 10:04   #172
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California Coast
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 331
Posts: 680
Geeze Randy... don't get your panties all bunched up!
Curmudgeon is simply pointing out that while most other boat manufacturers are switching over to plywood boats made with the "stitch and glue" method, Beneteau is behind the times with their production line fiberglass boats.

Plywood is by far the most reliable and safest way to go especially when used in combination with a staple gun and some glue. The other obvious advantage is that it eliminates the need for those pesky compound curves. Everyone agrees that boats not only sail better but look better with square box-like edges on the hull.

Did I mention that the plans are available and, as stated in the liturature, can easily be built in the backyard with little or no experience.

So there you have it... a truely "custom" boat that you can build in your spare time.
__________________
Liam Wald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 10:13   #173
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Liam, if you like building in your back yard, I have just the stitch and glue boat for you: Devlin Designing Boat Builders

I would suggest setting it up as a ketch motorsailer, which is one of the design options.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 10:50   #174
Senior Cruiser
 
Randyonr3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Beneteau FIRST 42
Posts: 1,836
I am truly sorry, and you are right Liam.. I will sell all my worth, and begin my search for the ultimate stitch and glue cruiser.....
__________________
Randyonr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 11:53   #175
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California Coast
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 331
Posts: 680
Randy,
Don't be too hasty. You MAY be okay afterall IF you have one of those older Beneteaus and not one of the tragically dangerous NEW Beneteaus.
__________________
Liam Wald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 12:46   #176
Registered User
 
danielgoldberg's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
My point is that you can't make inferences about a boat's suitability for cruising by looking at the same boat that has been set up for racing at great expense.

You are a cruising couple, middle aged, reasonably experienced, with a 300K budget plus investments that will provide a modest monthly fixed income that will cover cruising expenses. You are looking for a boat. Do you buy that brand new (or very late model) Bavaria or Beneteau, or a used Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Kelly Peterson, Ingrid or other purpose-designed cruising boat and use the balance of the 300K for a refit? That is the issue.

Some questions to ask yourself: 1) How much will the new boat depreciate the second I buy it? 2) What condition will the new boat be in in 10 years? 3) Will the components hold up under hard use? 4) What will its resale value be? 5) How will this boat handle a grounding? 6) Is the rig sturdy enough? 7) Will this boat recover from a knockdown? 8) How is the boat reefed, and what happens if a furler jams or a halyard gets tangled? Etc. Etc.

I think the above buying decision is pretty clear if this particular couple intends to do any serious cruising.

Randyonr3, let me repeat the question: is your boat an older Beneteau that may have been better built than the newer ones? Maybe you're the exception that proves the rule, or perhaps you are simply a better sailor than most of us.
This is a little long, sorry. I keep writing a point, going to do something else, coming back for 2 mins, etc., and that's the perfect way to draft an opus of a post. And as Mark Twain said, sorry this is so long; if I had more time it would be shorter.

To start, you've suggested that production boats are not suitable to sail in oceans. That many have sailed in these offshore events suggests the contrary, which is why I raised it. I do agree that being capable as an ocean racer doesn't make a boat a good cruiser, but that's not the point I was making. My point is that if a type of boat consistently makes ocean passages, I think you are hard pressed to maintain the position that such boats cannot make ocean passages.

Further, I think you're starting to conflate the issue (that is, if I understand the issue correctly). Whether to buy a new boat or buy a used one and spend the difference to refit is a separate discussion, so I don't think we should, in this thread, delve into a comparison between a new Beneteau or a used Valiant. If I understand your point correctly, you advocate that "production boats" simply are not good boats for cruising and people shouldn't buy them under any circumstance because there always is a better choice (i.e., for the money a purchaser always should choose buying an older smaller Valiant instead of buying a newer larger Beneteau, just as an example). I think that fairly sums up your viewpoint, but if not I'm sure you'll correct me.

I think you need to address the intended use of the boat, and I think you then need to have a bit more realistic view of what the various boats can and cannot do, and what you will and will not be doing with them.

Let's say you are a family of four (two adults, two kids) and your intended use is to live aboard, cruise the U.S. east coast, the Bahamas, run off to Bermuda every now and again, and maybe go down to the islands, which is a fairly common cruising scenario (to the extent any cruising scenario is common). I submit to you that a late model Beneteau 46 (or similar) just might be a better choice than the older Valiant 40. Why? Because the newer larger Beneteau will be more comfortable and better suited for 95% of your use. Not just merely sufficient, but actually BETTER suited. The cockpit will be larger and more comfortable, which will be a HUGE advantage while at anchor and even while sailing most of the time. The swim platform will make your daily existence on the hook so much easier, and enjoyable. You will have more space below, which if you are cruising with a family will become incredibly important (on the B46, you and your wife can have a private cabin, and each of the kids can have his/her own cabin). You will have more light, air and ventilation, which are things that are likely to make your family more happy and comfortable, and I don't need to tell you that you ignore such a thing at your peril.

As to the Valiant, it's an absolutely beautiful boat to be sure, and remarkably well built. But, it's not that big. Four people living on that Valiant for an extended period of time is going to feel cramped. Indeed, in my hypothetical, with four people living aboard, someone, somewhere is going to be sharing a berth or cabin, and that will get very old very quickly for long term cruising. I'm not saying it's an impossible setup, but it's less desireable. The boat's cockpit is incredibly small, designed with the almost-singular purpose of not filling up with water if pooped while at sea. When you're living on the hook at an anchorage, having a small, uncomfortable cockpit that you cannot board from the water is not a design feature that you intentionally employ. For much of the time you are likely to encounter light air; the Valiant will not fare as well in those conditions. You may need to motor a fair amount, particularly in the ICW; the Valiant will be a lot slower. For those few occasions where you are making an offshore run and the weather kicks up, you certainly will have a more comfortable motion in the Valiant, and likely will feel more secure. You also are less likely to break gear on that trip. But you are talking a handful of days in the life of, say, a one-year cruise. In your everyday life, do you live only in the basement every single day of the year because every now and again there might be a massive storm that hits your house? Of course not.

Now, if instead, you're a single person or a young couple, and you intend on doing some long term high latitude sailing, then, to me, the Valiant 40 is an infinitely better choice than the Beneteau 46 (and again, I'm just picking these two brands for purposes of example; my viewpoint applies to any number of brands/models on both sides of this aisle). Even if a meaningful percentage of your time is going to be spent on long open ocean crossings, then the Valiant is a better choice, in my opinion.

Does this mean the Valiant is a better boat? For some applications, absolutely yes. But for some, maybe not. Is it more robustly built? Certainly, but sometimes that's not what is required for the intended use, and it is possible to "over buy" (do you buy a riding mower to cut 20 square feet of grass?).

So you say if you have $300,000, you should buy an older smaller Valiant or similar rather than a newer larger Beneteau or similar. I submit to you that you should view the process a little differently. You should first decide what you are going to do with the boat. Then, figure out what boat best suits that intended use and your personal needs, and figure out what is available in your budget range. If you need a three-cabin boat (just one of a million potential criteria), then buy a three cabin boat; don't buy a two-cabin boat because it has a Valiant placard on the side -- when your spouse and family are at your throat about not being comfortable, it won't be much of an answer for you to say, "But honey, kids, you can't be unhappy, we're sailing a Valiant!" And when you're deciding which three-cabin boat to buy, you may decide that for cruising the Chesepeake Bay you don't need an icebreaker, and by buying a boat suited to your intended use, but not more, you might save yourself several hundred thousand dollars, which might mean you get out there cruising sooner or stay longer. But if you become married to the notion that it's a Valiant or nothing, even if you're just cruising the Bahamas, then you might find yourself cramped, uncomfortable, or at worst, never get there because you have to keep working that many more years so as to afford the more expensive boat that you don't need.

All the above being said, there's one other overriding point, IMHO. Boat purchases are not so logical. If you like a certain boat, but not another, by all means, buy the one you like. If you love the Valiant (not hard to fathom), then buy a Valiant. If you hate Beneteaus, or simply can't stand the thought of telling your friends at your club that you sail a Beneteau because you'd be embarrassed, then without question don't buy a Benny. If you have the means and you want the highest end, most prestigious of boats because having that sort of thing gives you satisfaction and makes you proud, go ahead and buy that vessel and enjoy the hell out of it. But be careful about telling others that they should not buy a boat suited to THEIR needs simply because you have a pre-conceived notion (which I'm sure I won't change by posting a message to you on the Internet).

One last thing, where do you get this notion that older Beneteaus were good boats but newer ones are not? I read that notion on boards such as this all the time, like a 1970s Cal all of a sudden has become an iconic great boat, but a 2000's Catalina is horrible. I'm sure 15 years from now people will be posting that the "new" Catalinas are horrible, "but you should have seen the ones built in the late 2000's, boy were they built like tanks." Funny how time and distance alters your perception. Believe me, with the advances in production methods and materials, production boats today are far superior to those built 20 or 30 years ago. I'm not saying the builders haven't laid an egg from time to time, or with certain models, or even during certain runs, but generally speaking, improvements in production methods and materials means improvements in boats generally. Today's production boats are faster, stronger and lighter than their ancestors (assuming you are comparing apples to apples, not Beneteaus to Oysters).

This is a totally useless thread, but it is highly entertaining and serving as a great diversion for me, so for that I thank everyone.
__________________
danielgoldberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 13:57   #177
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane
Boat: deboated
Posts: 672
Curmudgeon has a habit of switching focus as soon as he looks like his point of view is getting refuted. He started using Mercedes cars as an example and as soon as I pointed out a few facts about them he jumped aboard a Toyota. Since then as has been pointed out he has thrown in new boats, racing carbon rigs etc etc anything to get away from the original thread.
Iam getting very concerned about MarkJ on his Beneteau though no word for some time and with rigs and keels falling off those pesky production boats all over the world has he also become a victim?
__________________
meyermm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 14:22   #178
Registered User
 
danielgoldberg's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Curmudgeon has a habit of switching focus as soon as he looks like his point of view is getting refuted. He started using Mercedes cars as an example and as soon as I pointed out a few facts about them he jumped aboard a Toyota. Since then as has been pointed out he has thrown in new boats, racing carbon rigs etc etc anything to get away from the original thread.
Iam getting very concerned about MarkJ on his Beneteau though no word for some time and with rigs and keels falling off those pesky production boats all over the world has he also become a victim?
Now, now. Let's keep it civil (sort of; ). He's entitled to his opinion. And frankly, he's not the only one who holds the opinion he's espousing, but give him at least some credit for standing behind it.

And I have to say, it's hard to argue with folks who say they want a Morris, Oyster, etc. They are absolutely fabulous boats. My quibble is why that then translates into the conclusion that production boats are a scourge and people who sail them shouldn't be allowed to breed. There are many things about production boats that are not so hot, but they have many good attributes too.
__________________
danielgoldberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 14:32   #179
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,953
Images: 6
Good God! How long is this going to go on?

The answer is actually pretty simple. CAN these listed production boats be used to cross oceans? Of course. Silly to even suggest that they can't. Are they the BEST choice for that sort of use? Of course not. Silly to even suggest that they are.

Everything else is just nit-picking. So now you may return to your regularly scheduled nit-picking!
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2009, 14:37   #180
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Good God! How long is this going to go on?

The answer is actually pretty simple. CAN these listed production boats be used to cross oceans? Of course. Silly to even suggest that they can't. Are they the BEST choice for that sort of use? Of course not. Silly to even suggest that they are.

Everything else is just nit-picking. So now you may return to your regularly scheduled nit-picking!
I think that sums it up. I said earlier in this thread that production boats can be adequate blue water boats if properly equipped. Methinks the production boat advocates doth protest too much.

I do object, however, to the notion that "modern construction techniques" and "space age materials" make these mass produced boats superior to purpose built cruising boats.
__________________

__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bavaria, beneteau, jeanneau, monohull, ocean crossing, offshore

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beneteau, Bavaria and Jeanneau bg9208 Monohull Sailboats 36 17-05-2015 13:52
Bavaria 50 Cruiser vs Jeanneau 49 Leif Monohull Sailboats 3 01-03-2011 11:42



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.