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Old 16-10-2005, 06:29   #1
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Cool Can anyone suggest a good european made bluewater cruiser (27-32)

Hi!

I'm looking for a good european-made bluewater cruising sailboat. I have been unable to find a cruiser with the long keel among known european designers. Either they are too big or they are american.

Can someone suggest a suitable model, controlable by a crew of two... not too big 8-10m.

It doesen't have to be a full lenghth keel... just the half lenght.

Thank you very much..
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Old 16-10-2005, 07:33   #2
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You might want to look at

Camper & Nicholoson

Hallberg Rassy

Moody

Westerly

They all are good builders in your size range and above.
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Old 16-10-2005, 17:42   #3
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Jon D gave you a good list for starters. My comment is more argumentative. I assume you wish to buy a new boat that is immediately available in the European area. Otherwise, what is the problem with buying an American boat if it has the qualities you are looking for? I just had to ask the question.
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Old 17-10-2005, 02:38   #4
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'CE' Certification is required for all recreational boats entering or being sold in the European Union. Manufacturers must test and document to ensure conformity to all applicable European directives and requirements. CE certification is obtained from Notified Bodies, organizations that are recognized by European states to conduct CE assessments and issue CE certification documents.

Several U.S. Boatbuilders offer CE Certified boats, ...available for purchase in the United States, upon special order and for increased cost * ...
* ie: Hunter Marine
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Old 17-10-2005, 02:56   #5
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If I had to buy a mono! and wanted it for long term cruising, then I would definitely be looking at a Halberg Rassy. but for me, a much better long keel boat is the Prout 31 - 34 (or larger) !
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Old 17-10-2005, 05:16   #6
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Uki, if you wish others to offer you thoughtful replies, you need to do a much better job of describing your needs. Repost please, and include at least the following:

Your total purchasing budget (including what you have to spend on outfitting the boat)

In which region will you be shopping? North America (east or west)? Europe? If so, N Europe or the Med. Recommending boats that don't populate your shopping area wastes our time and isn't helpful to you.

What do YOU mean by 'bluewater'? Will the boat be sailed up and down the west coast of N and C America, perhaps thru the Caribbean, or in the Baltic? Or will you be crossing an ocean in her? Criteria vary considerably based on what kind of cruising you hope to do in her. (The more distant you describe the route, the fewer 'good' choices you'll have, so for your own sake be realistic in your answer).

Why Euro-built? We may know about boats suitably similar but built elsewhere; is this requirement exclusively because you are shopping in Europe?

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Old 17-10-2005, 07:58   #7
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CE Certification and European Standards

Gord, Thanks for your response to my question. As ever you are an amazing source of information. Here I go pirating a thread again. Arrrgh! I did note that Uki identified him/her self as being from Europe. I was aware of the European standards in yacht manufacture and inspection. But a lapse in memory kept me from applying that knowledge in this situation (if it applies to Uki's situation and is indeed the reason Uki wants to buy a European boat). Just to add a follow up. I have a Jeanneau which I bought new and was built in France and shipped across the pond. I assume it is built to European standards. It was very competitively priced for similar sized and equipped production coastal cruising boats of American manufacture, including the Hunter. Beneteau, which now is the parent company of Jeanneau, has a production plant here in the USA. Are there any differences in quality between Beneteaus made in France and those made in America? I know it is a moot point for a person living in Europe if they "must" buy some kind of European made boat. I am wondering ( and here I go thinking "out loud" and asking some nonsensical rhetorical questions): if it is a difference in manufacturing techniques and standards or a difference in bureauracies. Smacks of the likelihood of trade protectionism. Instead of high tarifffs just regulate the boats from ever being imported. And as for boats "entering the European Union" what about Eurocrusier and his Pearson. And what of other boats that were built before there was a EU and what about a good number of well built Canadian boats and bluewater boats built in Taiwan, some with American and some with European labels. Uki specified American. I guess I still wonder. Apparently so does, Eurocruiser.
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Old 17-10-2005, 12:34   #8
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Joe, you've got a lot of Q's wrapped up in that post (and the answers are even more complicated) but your basic instincts are right on target: the whole CE/RCD compliance process is fundamentally in place to serve as a trade barrier (or at least partial barrier, since some N American boats are marketed in Europe) to keep non-EU builders from competing with EU-builders inside the EU. European bureaucrats will say it was to level the playing field among competing Euro builders, and to insure via the CE 'A', 'B', etc. rating scheme that customers know what they are buying re: capabilities of the boat. Both those statements are true, misleading and incomplete.

There are minor differences between e.g. Beneteaus or Hunters (they are called Legends in Europe) which are built in Europe and North America, and that do relate to RCD requirements. E.g. copper tubing is mandated for propane runs, not propane-rated hose. The design, scantlings, and other structural and performance capabilities are identical, altho' Hunter/Legend does offer twin keel models in Europe they don't build in the USA.

If an EU citizen buys an EU boat and takes it out of the EU, s/he must return within 3 years or - again! - be liable for VAT, usually a bit less than 20% of the assessed value of the boat. (What a stupid rule. And the bureaucrats do the assessing...). If a non-EU citizen brings a non-EU compliant boat into the EU (your Jeanneau would qualify in this category if it was built in France but not originally CE rated and/or its been outside the EU for 3 years), the boat can remain there indefinitely...but it's not supposed to be registered in the EU without gaining RCD/CE compliance (an after-the-fact process that is very expensive and time consuming...and usually makes no sense for boats which have crossed an ocean to get there). And if it can't be registered, then it will be difficult to sell...so non-EU boats are not usually taken to the EU and later sold there.

BTW what about all those old boats that were built - somewhere, perhaps Taiwan - before there was a CE rating? At the tick of a clock, when this became in effect, they were all grandfathered and deemed compliant. So e.g. last May every boat in Poland that was owned by an EU citizen suddenly had RCD-compliant boats as Polant joined the EU, altho' hardly any boats in fact were. Moreover, they were all deemed to have VAT-paid status, without a kopec changing hands.

There is still a non-EU market for non-EU registered boats in places like Croatia and Turkey, but of course they both are now in the qualification phase for joining the EU.

Some American boats can be purchased in the USA with a CE Rating and compliant to RCD requirements (let's take Island Packet as an example) OR purchased in the EU; it's up to the owner, altho' the USA boat will be much cheaper. Jeanneaus should be able to be purchased with a CE rating and then exported to the USA for purchase by a buyer who wants that; this would only occasionally make sense in a practical world. My manufacturing-related CE rating experience was in the medical field but I think it's a fair guess that N American boat builders, even after they've qualified for the CE rating, don't as a rule want to build and issue CE paperwork when selling in N America because there is extra paperwork and extra costs.

None of this relates to how the CE ratings are actually enforced, by which I mean whether the authorities patrol for and enforce against taking a 'C' rated coastal/river sailboat across an 'A' body of water like the English Channel. The Brits don't bother at all; the French and Spanish do. Welcome to the EU.

With a few exceptions (Catalina, IP, Hunter/Legend come to mind), non-EU boat builders today can't/don't compete in the EU marketplace. Within the small minded commercial circles of the EU, this makes economic sense as EU jobs are protected...but they sure don't get to be world class manufacturers nor able to compete on the world's commercial stage with this approach. It also offers few guarantees to individual EU countries. E.g. there is very little boatbuilding now taking place in meaningful numbers within Britain, despite its nautical heritage, very active sailing/boating community, and long-standing boat building culture. Lots of different boats being built (most of them small) but not in any numbers.

BTW I see no reference to Uki being European nor living in Europe, which is why I asked some of the questions I did.

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Old 18-10-2005, 07:34   #9
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Jack, Thanks for the detailed response to my wonderings and musings. As usual, you and Gord are a wealth of knowledge. Lots more to the subject than I first thought. But seems like that is usually the case, at least for me. Red tape in Europe must me enormous compared to America. And I thought we had it bad here in the States. But if age of the country has any bearing and tendencies toward socialism in government then the Europeans should have much more practice at it.
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Old 18-10-2005, 08:24   #10
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Interesting reading on European boats vs. US boats.

I have seen several Europeans come here to Ft. Lauderdale boat shopping.
One couple bought a Jouet 1300 and planned to sail it back to Europe..Since the boat was built in France they figured it would get the CE document after VAT was paid.

But these guys are taking the boat to Norway, which is not part of the EU..Then what?

And what about Hallberg Rassy,s and Swan,s: Swden and Finland ain't part of the EU..But they wil probably certify the vessels with the CE document to marked them in Europe, but can Swedes and Finlanders buy used boats here in the US and take 'em home without any further documentation.?
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Old 18-10-2005, 09:49   #11
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Red tape

In the financial business we are thinking that the European markets may be flat due mainly to the beaurocracy.
An exception may be made for England.
The problem of taking boats to Europe parmanently is starting to be talked about. I do not know what rules apply, just what I have been reading here.
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Old 18-10-2005, 11:54   #12
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I should have added a qualifier to my earlier post, in bold letters: Things Change! Lest we forget, the EU has only recently installed this huge bureaucracy in Brussels with tentacles full of offices and commisions thru-out W Europe...and their job is to argue for legislation, write it, and then communicate it. All the national govts. end up being stuck with the task of enforcing it. My point is that change does occur. An excellent news magazine with quite accurate coverage on the EU soap opera is the Economist; best world-wide news magazine I've been able to find. You might pick one up and see what you think.

Yes, Europeans do shop for N American boats; the prices here (I'm in Florida for the next few months) are a fraction of what you find in much of Europe. They may or may not prefer European boats, and they may or may not be concerned about the boat being CE rated; after all, not all Europeans are checked out on this stuff as it's new to them, too. And as I mentioned above, how much of a problem THEY have when sailing it into their home waters and wanting to register it depends on their local authorities and their national enforcement practices. We have this tendency, both in Canada and the USA, to expect rules to be clear, uniform and administered equitably and we get quite cranky when we find out one part of the country is 'better off' in some respect than another. This disparity of actual practice is FAR more common in Europe, where e.g. each nation's customs departments administer both EU and national laws uniquely. Who knows what a given Swede finds when he takes a nifty USA boat back to Sweden and wants to register it. He may process the paperwork thru his brother-in-law. When a Brit recently sought a "quote" on VAT for his new Westerly, the Spanish authorities assessed the boat's value at 50% of the British authorities. As you can imagine, this instigates a lot of gameplaying.

Another thing we shouldn't overlook is that Europeans have not only perfected the ability to tax everything and have made bureaucracy into a national past-time but also, as a result, tax evasion is either a hobby or a career for many Europeans. There are many boats owned by Europeans on which VAT has never been paid and which sit quietly in a slip up some Spanish Ria or are on charter out in Croatia, or are being used for sailing school use in Gib, and the Euro owners never plan on paying VAT. My point is to be careful about assuming too much if you should bump into a EU sailor in N America who's shopping for a boat. (If I were European and wanted to go cruising, I'd start with a boat purchase in the USA for a far better price than Europe, pay no tax, take it cruising, and then sell it somewhere like the E Med or the Caribbean and let the next fellow cough up the tax.

CSY Man, both Finland and Sweden are members of the EU. Mike, I'm surprised anyone in the financial world would view the British as less susceptible to the inefficiencies of bureaucracy than the rest of Europe. Perhaps its because the UK bureaucrats are some of the nicest and least knowledgeable officials we've met over there.

Americans, certainly more than Canadians, IMO are so ethnocentric and clueless about the wider world that we have no ability to appreciate how well off we are WRT our govt. and its services. As one example, I have yet to find a single nation that operates a mail service that has the same mix of security, reliability and range of services at such low cost as our USPS.

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Old 18-10-2005, 12:25   #13
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CSY Man, both Finland and Sweden are members of the EU
Huh, news to me..But then again I have not been keeping track.
I know for sure that Norway ain't member of no EU...Unless they changed their mind in the last few months.

The guys I have been running into here in Florida shopping for boats were all Norwegians, and in fact I brokered one deal and assisted with several other inquires, the advise I gave them with CE and VAT was to check with the local Custom Office in Norway and get something in writing before they signed papers or handed over checks.

In reality some of the folks are considering cruising their boats for a few years and living onboard in Europe, but keeping the US registration, then just leave the country for shorter cruises now and then.

On the other hand we have German friends that bought a CSY 44 here in FL 2 years ago, and they obtained German registration and insurance right away but don't have to pay any VAT or hassle with CE until they "import" the boat to Germany.

Or some such thing..

As you said Mr. Eurocruiser, there are many ways to skin a cat, and they are all being practiced.

If you are in Ft. Lauderdale, lets have a brew together and tell some lies.
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Old 18-10-2005, 12:25   #14
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England

My remark about England being a possible exception was to do with their markets, not the beaurocracy.
I agree that England can be just as befuddling as elsewhere. However their markets may do better than the rest of the EU.
This of course is looking to the future which can produce anything, but we must try and make a track to run on.
There does appear to be more selection of boats at reasonable prices in the US, than elsewhere. I have pretty well confined my looking to the US and NZ. A US made boat can come to Canada duty free, with only local and Ferderal sales taxes due. That totals 14% in BC.
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Old 23-10-2005, 07:30   #15
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Mann oh Mann...
(German for "Oh my dear Lord"),

The initial question was to find a good European cruising boat in the 30 foot range... he got one appropriate answer and a whole bunch of (mostly incorrect) assessments of the EU as a political, economical and/or cultural entity.

Uki, your straight question deserves a simple answer, which was actually given: whoever marginalizes HR as not fitting a cruisers bill, has never sailed one; the only withstanding factors could be price and somewhat antiquated aesthetics; HR is the benchmark for serious cruising.

Generalizations are a drag, please keep this in mind when I say that just as with cars there IS a defining difference between European and American made boats: In Europe people want to sail and compete, in the US people want to sit in the Marina and entertain. Boat manufacturers build accordingly. Now slap me with J-boats from the US and Hunter (after all British) from Europe... as I already admitted: generalizations are a drag.

One other definite difference: contemporary European boat-design, particular from Etap or Hanse is the vanguard of design, most US-boats look aged by comparison.

Uki, a few other names: if you are looking into something sportier, yet still cruiseable: Grand Soleil, Etap or Hanse (these makes are also available in the US).
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