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Old 23-10-2005, 08:13   #16
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Morski Krastavac suggested that
”... contemporary European boat-design ... is the vanguard of design, most US-boats look aged by comparison ...”

I’ll admit that Europe often leads North America in styling, design, & sometimes engineering (all different things).

This is not to say that fashionably trendy styling is more than marginally desirable (if at all) - especially in a cruising sailboat, which might be viewed primarily as a machine & an abode.

Machinery doesn’t lend itself to the faddish adoption of the current vogue in image. Often, “classic designs” have become so, because they have stood the test of time. The American architect, Louis Sullivan, coined the phrase “Form follows function*”, way back in 1896. The principle still has some merit today.
*His one-time partner, Dankmar Adler, actually reduced the original expression “form ever follows function”, to 3 words

Two innovations, that I’d attribute to Euro’ designers, are Plumb Bows, and Aircraft-Style Interiors.
I think plumb bows are likely to become classic design features, because they have utility.
Likewise, so do Aircraft Interiors (have utility), though I’m not yet satisfied with the evolution of this form.

I apologise if I’m over-analyzing Morski’s admittedly “general” comments. Thanks for bringing us back to the original question.
BTW: Nice website < http://www.croatiaunplugged.com/ >, beautiful boat!

Respectfully,
Gord
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Old 23-10-2005, 09:54   #17
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Many of those European built boats that are available in the U.S. can be purchased in Europe, ex VAT, for prices that are a fraction of what they go for after shipping, duties, handling costs and dealer cuts in America, foreign exchange rates notwithstanding. The case with American built boats is just the reverse – they are much more expensive in Europe plus face the CE acceptance hurdles mentioned previously. The only reasons I can see for an EU citizen to shop in the U.S. is that he prizes the more staid American boat aesthetic, and/or he intends to begin cruising across the pond and remain out of the EU for some time. American citizens, on the other hand, have much to gain by doing just the opposite. Buy a European boat, new or used, often of more avant-garde design, and begin cruising there. -Phil
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Old 24-10-2005, 03:28   #18
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Hi!

I'm sorry that most of you didnt understand my question very well. So I will be more specific in my question.

Since I was 3 (1977) years old I sailed the Adriatic sea with my father, he sold his ship in 1996 and has found another hobby. I thought I wouldn't miss sailing so much as I do now... especialy in the last two years.
So I decided that I should buy a sailboat. Since my ambition is to go further into the mediterranean sea I decided to by a boat that could take a long open sea passage.
I am not a rich man who can choose a sailboat out of the catalogue and have it sent from the other side of the world.

So I have to buy a used boat in the 27.000 - 40.000 EUR range.

One that can be handled by a crew of two.

It doesent have to be from the European Union, what I ment was readily avaliable in my vicinity (Slovenia - adriatic sea coast).

There are not many U.S. boats in Europe, so there isn't much to choose from. Also the transport os a boat from the US is very expensive. And I am on the tight budget.

Thanks for your answers, UKI
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Old 24-10-2005, 05:07   #19
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Hi Uki,

Europe is one great place to buy (used) boats right now... so Slovenia is your starting-place: Marina Izola perhaps...?

I recommend to get the bigger Yachting Mags from Europe: "Yacht" from Germany and "Yachtrevue" from Austria in particular, both have comprehensive websites, (even their forums offer threads for used boats) and the hard-copies contain a large section of Classifieds. Even if you do not speak or read the language... you will get an idea about what's offered in any language. I will check in the more recent "Yacht" and email you if I find something that matches your criteria.

The even better way would be to be in the country, but for that Slovenia is not very interesting... short shoreline, only 3 Marinas to speak of and few boats: Croatia would be my suggestion. Touch base with the larger Marinas, atarting with their web-presence: the ACI group operates several Marinas all over Croatia, in the North is Marina Punat on the island of Krk. I know many boats are for sale in the region and the Marina-office will hook you up with the owner/seller.

One last (admittedly) somewhat off the wall tip: MONTENEGRO... downright cheap. If you find what you like there, you will get it for a 30% discount over Slovenian / Croatian prices.

Good Luck.
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Old 24-10-2005, 05:49   #20
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Here are some contenders for you:

Italy

Greece

Croatia

Turkey
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Old 25-10-2005, 06:51   #21
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Uki,

I'd back up Morski's selection of alternate EU boats to check out.

The smaller second hand Grand Soliels - especially the Germain Freres designs - are super sail boats and will go anywhere quickly - and also stylish down below despite the age.

I'd also check out older / smaller Swans.
Pick a good one built pre CE days - usually constructed as strong as a brick dunny - but also sail well in any weather.

Best of luck with your searching - and enjoy this first step into cruising.

Cheers
JOHN
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Old 25-10-2005, 07:58   #22
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Ooops...

...what an oversight: Swagman is of course very correct: Swan is definitely up there along with HR. One other very interesting cruising-boat: Najad.

Regarding Talbot's links, mostly if not exclusively brokerage with all it's ad- and disadvantages...
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Old 25-10-2005, 10:03   #23
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Interesting Views on EU and USA Designs

I guess we all trust the orginal poster finds the boat he wants - but it's interesting seeing the discussion on designs and attributes etc. Almost got to USA v EU.

It is a generalisation but IMHO most sailors EU based do see most USA imports as (a) either plastic fantastics with lots of marina attributes and can rant about how dangerous some are in bigger seas - or (b) lookalikes replicating older designs of pirate ships. Those who only see boats in these groups are perhaps forgetting the many US builders - J's are a great example - where innovation and modern looks still result in superb yachts held in regard worldwide.

Equally - I pick up that many of the perhaps more traditional US sailors see the mass production EU Benteaus, Bavarias etc as being less than effective ocean crossing vessels. The rants about how they twist, and keels fall off etc - seems equally loud.

The truth of course is somewhere between all of the above.

Today we all live in a global society - sailors especially - and I think we all know nations produce super, good, sad, and bad boats. We are all best acknowledging this and sharing the news with newbie sailors - and its better to share facts rather than opinions.

I personally believe the key to safe and enjoyable sailing is foremost the skipper and his / her crew - then how they plan - then how they kit themselves out - and it almost does not matter what boat they then choose to sail - taking into account all the keys mentioned.

Many plastic fantastics from either side of the Atlantic have been sailed across successfully with careful passage planning / rallies to minimise risk - and many solid traditional vessels have been abandoned in ports by crew who found it impossible to sail them with success.

I think it is great to have such diverse views aired globally via places like this site - and if we all aim for global sailing discussion and not argument - we'll all surely learn more.

Enjoy.........
JOHN
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Old 25-10-2005, 10:51   #24
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Talbot's links, mostly if not exclusively brokerage with all it's ad- and disadvantages
Of course they were, however, it is useful to get a better idea of the type of boat that is available at the price range before spending a lot of time waffling on about what sort of boat would be good, when the recomendation is well out of the viable price range.

IMHO, the only way to get a decent blue water cruiser within that price scale is to find a good ferro boat that was professionally built and has all the toys needed for blue water. There should even be some money remaining for the fit out and provisioning.
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Old 28-10-2005, 04:37   #25
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Talking My boat

I have found a Halmatic 30, full keel sailboat for a reasonable price. (no need for a ferro boat)

It seems a good choice and is avaliable from european ports...

It is very similar to Nicholson 31, almost identical.

What do you think?
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Old 28-10-2005, 05:15   #26
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Dont know the Halmatic 30 , although Halmatic well known as a maker of decent GRP hulls.

If it is similar to the Nicholson, it will be a good sea boat and able to do decent windward legs. However, it will be wet so you will need at least a dodger, and will also be confined down below. IMHO a good sailing boat, but not so nice as a liveaboard, particularly in a hot climate.
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Old 30-10-2005, 14:53   #27
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Concidering your budget you can forget HR or Najad. If you find one in your price range it´ll be quiet a wreck. You might want to look at some Albins, they are no long keel boats but pretty seaworthy for their size and within your budget.
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:39   #28
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CE Certs and the RCD

For those who really want to get into the detail of CE certification and the related Recreational Craft Directive, I've attached a couple of links.

http://www.lr.org/rules_and_standard...onal_craft.htm

http://www.rsg.be/

Happy reading!

As for the original question from Uki about a good Blue Water cruiser manufactured in Europe, apart from those already mentioned have a look at the Amel range made in France.

Amel tend to make boats larger than the 10M that Uki is looking for but these are serious bluewater cruisers especially designed for short handed sailing.

Colin
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