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Old 23-02-2006, 12:23   #1
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C&C 30-MK1 vs. Bristol 29.9

Would love some feedback from this knowledgeable group on the pros and cons of buying a 1980 vintage C&C 30-mk1 vs. Bristol 29.9 as a Southeastern US coastal cruiser to be singlehanded primarily. Areas of comment could include quality, maintenance, performance, suitability, etc. Although the 29.9 is a fin keel with skeg rudder, its looks not to perform as well as the C&C. However, the 29.9 appears a more stable cruising platform. The Bristol has a solid glass hull; not sure on the C&C. read mention of some coring near the bow in C&C'S of this vintage. The MK-1 is considered stiff and not tender as later versions of the C&C 30. then why is it not recommended for cruising? looking for an easily maintained 30 footer with good performance, preferably without a cored hull and without a full keel. price point is right for these two models. fair winds to all!
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Old 24-02-2006, 06:55   #2
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Hi Clay,
I`ve not sailed a C&C 30 Mk I though it has the reputation of being a fairly stiff boat. My 1988 30 Mk II is by no means tender either. Its a wing keeled version with a ballast displacement ratio of .41 The foward panels are cored on my boat though I don`t think they are on the Mk I.

Allan
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Old 24-02-2006, 08:54   #3
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allan, thanks much for reply...the MK-II has a very nice interior plan in my opinion (much better than MK-I)....am worried a little about its stability and motion comfort in open seas....what kind of maintenance problems have you had? do you singlehand?
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Old 24-02-2006, 12:37   #4
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Clay, I sail my 30 Mk II primarly in Lake Ontario and Bay of Quinte area just west of Kingston Ontario. I would have concerns as an open seas boat. I have expirienced quartering seas of between 8 and 10 feet. This required absolute constant attention of the helm as the boat would have rounded up if I would have let go of the wheel for even a split second. The autopilot (ST4000)was useless in these conditions as it doesn`t respond quickly enough. These boats were designed beamy aft in order to compete with all of the french designs of the 80`s era. Great for the interior aft cabin but detrimental because of the over boyancy aft. My boat is now 18 years old. Maintenance wise nothing critical, I`ve rebedded hardware, changed the cutlass bearing, battery charger and last season the hot water tank. My rudder is showing a few hairline cracks on the side, this due to water intrusion from the top of the rudder at the shaft and then freezing in the winter. I`ve since drilled a hole at the bottom of the rudder at haulout so that it will drain. Generally though no major issues, pretty well just the standard maintenance issues with any boat of this age. I often single hand and I don`t need a powerful 153% genoa that we so often see on C&C`s. Last season I purchased a 110% genoa. I love the convienience of faster tacks and much better visiblity and not having to reef as early. The large genoa was a pain to tack because the boat has a babystay. This boat is a great coastal cruiser, lots of space and more tankage than I see on much larger boats. The designers seem to have crammed as many big boat features on here as possible.
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Old 25-02-2006, 11:42   #5
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Motion Comfort

You can calculate motion comfort using the following formula:

Displacement / (0.65xbeamx((.7xLWL)+(.3*LOA)))

The easiest way to do it is to put it into an excel spreadsheet with colums for displacement, LWL, LOA, Beam, and Motion Comfort (put the formula with the appropriate cell references here) with an additional colume for Boat Type so you dont lose track of what you are comparing. Copy and paste the formula down several rows.

Then just plug in numbers for boats as you find ones you are interested in.

Exampls:

C&C Mk 1 30' = 47.7
C&C Mk II 35' = 63.5
C&C Landfall 35' = 64.3

...but the C&C Mk III 35' drops back to 49.5

Compare these to the Contessa 32' at 58.3, the Contessa 35' at 63.6 and Pearson 365 at 74.1
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Old 26-02-2006, 09:31   #6
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Here's something from the Sailnet BB that I moved over; it was written by Jeff H whom folks here recognize well, I believe:

"As I have said many times before on this and other venues, the capsize screen ratio tells you absolutely nothing at all about a boats likelihood of capsizing and motion comfort index tells you less than nothing about the motion comfort of a boat. Neither formula contains such key factors as vertical center or gravity, vertical center of buoyancy, buoyancy and weight distribution, vertical center of effort, waterline beam, deck house and topsides volume or any of the other factors that actually control motion and ultimate stability. To explain, I typically give the example of two identical boats except that one has 1000 lbs of lead at the top of its mast. In reality the boat with the 1000 lbs of lead at the top of the mast would be more prone to capsize and more prone to an extremely high angles of rolling and pitching motion that would have high accellerations at the end of the swing. In other words you would expect that boat to do more poorly both from a motion comfort and capsize standpoint. Yet, if you compared the capsize screen ratio and motion comfort index results, the boat with the 1000 lb lead weight up its mast would have better ''numbers''."

Personally, I like the Bristol 29.9 and think H Herrschoff did a good job with the design just as Bristol built it respectably. It is not fast and, at 30', offers many compromises due to size. But rather than a few single attributes, to me it's value is in the wide range of qualities. I would also consider taking it deeply offshore for in-season temperate latitude sailing and certainly the tropics.

Jack
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Old 26-02-2006, 11:33   #7
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Capsize

To illustrate Jeff's point. A Catalina 27 and my boat have very close matching numbers. When we both, plus the rest of the fleet, got caught with our largest headsails up ( 170 for me Catalina 27 and Tanzer 22 ) and the wind went to above 20, we were able to carry the sail to the next windward mark. The T22 sailed on the main alone, so did other boats, and the Catalina did out off control donuts and collided with another boat causing them to withdraw. Another first for us in blustery conditions. We go to weather better because of a more full aft section, weight is low in the keel, and the beam at the waterline is a bit narrower.
You need to sail on the boats in a variety of conditions, or get honest answers from the previous owner or other owners.
Michael
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Old 26-02-2006, 14:49   #8
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Catalina 27 Performance Ratios

Hull speed
in knots = 6.25

Displacement
to length
ratio = 293

Sail area
to displacement
ratio = 15.3

Capsize
screen = 1.87
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Old 26-02-2006, 17:37   #9
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Hi there Clay!

Let me start by saying I have sailed (raced/cruised) the C&C 30 Mk1 for over 15 years. I know the boats good points and short comings. However I have never sailed on the Bristol 29.9!
First of all you need to focus on exactly what ypu invision you style of boating will be in the near future. This is not an easy thing to do. I am fighting with this myself and it can be frustrating ( at least I find it so!!!!)
Like I said having never sailed that model of Bristol I can't provide any indepth knowledge. However I have carefully over the years considered some of the Bristol boats. Let me say that Jeff H is someones opinion I value. We don't always agree...but thats OK!
But comparing a Bristol 29.9 to a C&C Mk1 is like comparing apples with oranges. From my observations the Bristol is more a cruiser. The C& C is what was considered for her time a racer. But today she is what I would describe as a cruiser/racer.
First C&C made several 30' models over the years so it is very important to find out which one you are talking about.
You can best find more detailed info at the following site: www.cncphotoalbum.com -There look under Technical Info.
In my opinion the Mk1 and Redwing models of 30' C&C were their best. The Mk1 was one of the stiffest 30' boats made...certainly in her time and maybe still one of the best! She was stiifer for example then the C&C Landfall( C&C so-called cruisers) series 35', 38' and 43' and they are good performers also!
Sounds like the perfect boat right.... not quite!
They had sparse interiors and in todays standards very small down below. They also aren't easily handled by a small crew if stock rigged! Although they were very well built if negleted there is a potential problems with the deck /hull joints which can often mean very expensive repairs. Also if raced, like other boats they aren't a oggd choice unless you have lots of $$$$
Are they one of the best looking 30 footers around...in my eyes they are right up there. Even now they still get looks at the docks. Are they the best 30' boat... that depends on YOUR NEEDS not mine. If you want a good bluewater cruiser this isn't your boat. If you like to race or bay/coastal cruise they can be a good choice if you don't space down below isn't a factor. If you sail by yourself or with a crew of 2 you may need to invest in different rigging.
Perhaps if you could provide more specifics about your sailing needs I could respond further.
Cheers, Allan Guest
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Old 26-02-2006, 19:38   #10
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thanks for all the good replys....very informative stuff...especially allan, amac, jack, michael, captain k, and allan guest....helps we with my thinking....to clarify, looking for a 30 foot under cruiser for southeast US for seasonal sailing....extended trips...will be in open Atlantic some....hopefully the tropics later on.....looking for a good quality boat of 1980 vintage under $30,000, no longer than 30 feet....have done a ton of research....things i do not want include full keel, cored hull, slug in the water, high maintenance costs due to poor construction....wants are a somewhat stiff boat, fin keel (no centerboard), skeg hung rudder, keel stepped mast, lead ballast, solid glass hull, easily handled sail plan to single hand, nice interior layout but nothing extravagant, and reliable and accessible diesel........in answer to allan g..."no, not intending to race or break any records, but want a good turn of speed...preferably, a PHRF below 190 instead of over 200 like most so-called cruisers"...very few boats i find match the above criteria.....have already eliminated some rather well considered boats .......the Bristol 29.9's PHRF is not far off from the C & C 30-MK-1 (not to be confused with later versions which had more aft bouyancy, lighter, and more tender...consequently faster) 170-180 range. This Bristol version was a second generation boat and not the slug that earlier Bristols and other models were....appears well built....only negative i can see other than its lower SA/D ratio of around 15 is its lack of an oven in the galley...would be nice for a seasonal liveaboard...other than that, has a nice navigation table and aft quarter berth......on the other hand, the C & C appears to be a better performer with a SA/D ratio of closer to 18....but as pointed out by allan, it might be harder to handle by one person.....something to consider.....someone pipe up and tell me if my thinking is not sound on the matter......and again, thanks to all concerned.....would not like to make a huge mistake on my first cruiser.
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Old 26-02-2006, 20:50   #11
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Choices

I am with you most of the way, makes sense to me.
My Tanzer 8.5, not to be confused with a Tanzer 28, has a lot of what you are looking for. Just a few missing things. Would need to build a skeg for the rudder but the keel would have to stay cast iron. Boat rates 191 at the ocean, sails easy to its handicap on windy days. Sail area to displacement is about 16 so I use a 170 headsail for drifters, 150 to about 15 mph of wind, 130 to low twenties, 110 to about 30, stuff a reef in, the two, reef the 110, then switch to the smallest headsail, then drop it altogether. Boat weighs 7400 pounds, probably not lighter. 1979, fresh water forever, dodger, sun / rain shade, swim grid, about the same room as some 30 footers but not as big as a C&C 30. Stays with the 30 in waves. Two spinnakers to go with all the headsails and a spare main. 150 and main are like new. Two good halyard winches, two two speeds two self tailers, and a small winch on the mast. Oven and fridge, original cushions, crappy colour, blue checkered, new main sail cover, new winter cover.
$27500- Canadian dollars. That is a bit more than book value but it does have about $10,000- worth of gear that a normal boat would have. Good clutches and a Tiller Master. There are a few small things I would like to tidy up but right now I am working on my 22 foot boat. Solid glass hull, keel to hull joint is hurricane and rock proof, never a sign of blisters, zip nada. New folding prop, new strut, depth sounder, cheap VHF, car CD player.
Michael
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Old 27-02-2006, 07:35   #12
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Some others to consider!!!!

Since you live/sail in the North-east your selection of baost are somewhat similar to mine. (I live in Ontario, Canada)
Here are a few other boats to add to your list: (IMHO)
in order of my ranking
1) C&C 30 Mk1-mast steps need to be replaced..not a difficult repair. Lots to choose from!

1) CS (Canadian Sailcraft) 30 -great performer and a friend of mine has sailed to the Caribbean and back with no problem. More of a Euro style tho!

2) Niagara 31- designed by Frers and built by Hinterhoeller. PHRF of 156!!! Can be tender but...still safe ! Watch out for models with saildrive.

3) Ticon 30- hard to find. Very large down below. Had some problems with chainplates.

I would also look at the Ontario 32
- I know you said 30' but this boat has cult status for those wanting to go to the Bahamas- a stable no-nonsense cruiser with a PHRF of 174!!!! Was built to very high standards. If I was looking for a cruiser that performs well under 33' that would be high on my list. Definitely worth looking at!!!!!!

As well as the Bristol

Fair winds, Allan Guest
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