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Old 02-12-2013, 10:50   #1
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Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Howdy fellow sailors,

I have dreamed for a long time to make a longer sailing trip and now I think it's the time to realize that dream. As the title says I'm planning to buy a sailing boat from Mediterranean Sea and sail it back to Finland. I've years of sailing experience from Baltic Sea and I've also done several charter trips to Meds but this still feels like a big step so it would be great to get your comments and advices, both in boat purchase and actual sailing related topics.

I've compiled a criteria list for myself to help me choosing the boat:
* Budget: preferably 60-80kEUR incl. VAT (100kEUR absolute maximum)
* Head room in the galley (I'm 1.9m) --> ~35' minimum boat length
* Three cabins
* I'm only cruising, not racing
* Option to equip later for ARC
* Boat should be as ready as possible for the Med-Fin sail when I buy it

After looking boats in Yachtworld I'm started to think that a good fit for me might be:
- Relatively new (newer than 2000)
- Mass-produced (Beneteau, Bavaria, Jenneau, Hanse, others?)
- From private owner

Would be great if you can challenge and comment any of the above. I'd also have a few questions:
? Is it possible to filter out "VAT not paid" boats in Yachtworld?
? Is it possible to get ARC capable boat in my price range?
? Should I also consider older but "higher quality" boats like this Moody
? How long you think I should reserve time for the Med-Finland sailing? If we assume I buy the boat from e.g. Croatia.

After I get to Finland my plan is to sail ~1 month a year in archipelagos of Finland and Sweden and after that (maybe in five years) my dream is to cross the Atlantic

Thanks in advance!
Sam
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:56   #2
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

I'd choose older 'quality' boat, and considering archipelagos of the Baltic one with moderate or low aspect ratio keel.
BR Teddy
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Old 04-12-2013, 00:03   #3
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I'm also a bit puzzled by the concept of the year 2000. The far majority of boats from the early naughties are of lesser quality now than my 1984 Baltic. My Baltic had a lot of work done in 2004/5 and basically, I still needed to redo many things, including the rod rigging. I was also not willing to accept the electronics of 2006 anymore after getting more into it and wanting to sail to Med. For crossing the Bay of Biscay and the English channel, as you will need to do, I felt it was necessary to seriously upgrade the boat. In the Channel, as well as along the Dutch and German coastal areas, AIS and radar are a must IMHO. Installing these new electronics was a VERY expensive exercise. Of course, you can install older, standalone equipment rather than my integrated stuff but it will still add up.

So all I am saying is that the age of the boat should not really be your focus, it is the age of the things ON the boat that make the difference.

If the ARC is a serious proposition, then I would not choose a shallow draft boat (although a downside in the Caribbean, it is the ocean stuff that you should buy it for). If the Baltic Sea is the main focus, then I might (but still there is the time in the Med and the long sail back to consider as well).

One more thing on the ARC: I'm preparing for the ARC Portugal. I thought my boat was well-equipped, although I knew i had stuff to buy, but it failed 75% of their safety checks. Equipping it for the ARC will be expensive, even though I'm not yet buying an SSB (not required for ARC Portugal, but it is for the ARC), and no windvane. Just something to keep in mind, you need a sh1t load of stuff these days and it is not for free, and if it is on your boat but out of date (which is normally the case) you have to replace things.


Onno
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:06   #4
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam the Sailor View Post
Howdy fellow sailors,

I have dreamed for a long time to make a longer sailing trip and now I think it's the time to realize that dream. As the title says I'm planning to buy a sailing boat from Mediterranean Sea and sail it back to Finland. I've years of sailing experience from Baltic Sea and I've also done several charter trips to Meds but this still feels like a big step so it would be great to get your comments and advices, both in boat purchase and actual sailing related topics.

I've compiled a criteria list for myself to help me choosing the boat:
* Budget: preferably 60-80kEUR incl. VAT (100kEUR absolute maximum)
* Head room in the galley (I'm 1.9m) --> ~35' minimum boat length
* Three cabins
* I'm only cruising, not racing
* Option to equip later for ARC
* Boat should be as ready as possible for the Med-Fin sail when I buy it

After looking boats in Yachtworld I'm started to think that a good fit for me might be:
- Relatively new (newer than 2000)
- Mass-produced (Beneteau, Bavaria, Jenneau, Hanse, others?)
- From private owner

Would be great if you can challenge and comment any of the above. I'd also have a few questions:
? Is it possible to filter out "VAT not paid" boats in Yachtworld?
? Is it possible to get ARC capable boat in my price range?
? Should I also consider older but "higher quality" boats like this Moody
? How long you think I should reserve time for the Med-Finland sailing? If we assume I buy the boat from e.g. Croatia.

After I get to Finland my plan is to sail ~1 month a year in archipelagos of Finland and Sweden and after that (maybe in five years) my dream is to cross the Atlantic

Thanks in advance!
Sam
Sam,

I live in Denmark and sail the Baltic. We are planning a circumnavigation starting in about 2 years, so I am fitting out the boat for that.

First, I would drop the Hansa and Bavarias. I will probably get flamed for saying that, but while there are people who have done RTW s in both kansas and baravias, generally the equipment (winches, sails, etc etc etc) are just not heavy duty enough for real water sailing">blue water sailing.

Jenneau and Bene's are generally equipped with more heavy duty equipment and will therefore be better.

Equipping for an RTW or an ARC will cost something like 30-40K euros, depending on what you have in the boat to start. A quick list (not exhaustive will show how I reach that figure:

watermaker - 5-6k
HF radio - 5k
Radar/AIS - 5k
Targa bar/bimini - 5k
Hypalon dinghy/outboard motor - 4k
life raft - 3k
diverse electronics (personal beacon etc) - 5k
spare parts for engine etc - 5k
spare sails?
Lots of little stuff, tools etc - 5k

That short list totals 42k, You can make it less by striking some items off, but you'll probably add some instead (say a wind vane)

I would really say you should be very attentive when you look at a boat at all its accessories. Are they heavy duty enough for blue water? We have a Jenneau Sun FAst, which is a performance cruiser. The reason we bought this boat is that everything is one size heavier than on a standard cruiser. Winches are bigger, sheet locks are bigger, cleats bigger, everything is made for heavy duty usage.
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Old 04-12-2013, 13:52   #5
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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That short list totals 42k, You can make it less by striking some items off, but you'll probably add some instead (say a wind vane)
A decent list, and good points, but your list also assumes that you don't have to replace stuff. When buying a secondhand boat, I would in most cases replace the rigging before I would set off on a transatlantic. Typically, there will be other stuff to do too.

You also missed the autopilot - the older ones are not really suited to steer on trade winds. I would certainly add either a windvane or a modern autopilot to the list, but ideally both.

Talking of autopilot - one of my major concerns is power on board. There is no decent option for solar panels, so it will have to be tow generator and/or wind generator. The latter is on trade winds not very effective, but when lying at anchor in the Caribbean it is. So best to have both systems. That is again quite costly if you want a decent set-up.

Storm jib - most boats do not have one, nor facilities to put one up. If you have one stay with a furling genoa, you are in trouble when you get over 7BF. You really need to prepare for getting caught in a proper gale. For my boat, I need to install a removeable forestay and have a jib made. That's another 5k.

Also check what kind of reefing the main has. A third reef definitely adviseable in heavy weather.

And other sails - most boats will have too few sails for a trade wind passage. Traditional spinnakers are not ideal for a couple, especially at night. Gennakers don't work in a dead run. A second genoa, boomed out, is fine, but make sure you fly it, not put it on the furler as well.

Another thing you don't mention is tankage. Most boats have too little water and diesel storage capability and you should consider installing extra tanks, if possible. Also not cheap.

Finally, storage. Especially modern boats severely lack store capacity. Boat makes these days often rather put in a 3rd head in a 40footer than create sail storage or wet lockers. If you are considering a crossing, really think about how you are going to use the space available.


Onno
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Old 04-12-2013, 17:36   #6
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Two things I would reconsider:

- Relatively new (newer than 2000)
- Mass-produced (Beneteau, Bavaria, Jenneau, Hanse, others?)

Although these boats are fully capable of ocean sailing, newer production boats of these brands are designed for more localised sailing with increased interior volume, freeboard, lighter ballasted, cheaper to construct and things still break and need fixing like any other boat. Some (I'm not saying all) older boats are much better suited to ocean sailing, especially short handed, you may lose some volume tho.
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Old 04-12-2013, 18:53   #7
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Originally Posted by Kestrahl View Post
Two things I would reconsider:

- Relatively new (newer than 2000)
- Mass-produced (Beneteau, Bavaria, Jenneau, Hanse, others?)

Although these boats are fully capable of ocean sailing, newer production boats of these brands are designed for more localised sailing with increased interior volume, freeboard, lighter ballasted, cheaper to construct and things still break and need fixing like any other boat. Some (I'm not saying all) older boats are much better suited to ocean sailing, especially short handed, you may lose some volume tho.
I've taken many " mass produced" boats on long voyages and across oceans. Most do just fine. Lets leave that myth of coastal cruising aside. Northern European waters where these boats sail like around the North Sea, UK or Ireland generate far tougher situations then you'll find on a milk run ocean crossing.

You don't need solar to cross the Atlantic , nor a wind vane , nor a watermaker. You don't need an SSB ( only a SSB receiver) to do the ARC , get a 2nd hand iridium sat phone for long distance comma and getting weather.

You can add a towed generator( You need to be able to generate under sail ) , a good autopilot , and for sails a reefed poled out headsail , and reefed main will carry you nicely across. To save electricity run the interior dark at night, use head lights , nicer on the off watch crew anyway. Conserve water. You'll cross nicely without fuss


The fact is you can take a virtually stock " mass production" boat across oceans with a bit of tweaking. People who give out about them , either never owned one , or never went out of sight of land in them.

Everything else are just " nice to haves "

Dave
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Old 04-12-2013, 19:02   #8
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Completely agree Dave, most of these boats CAN do it, some are just better at it than others!! I recently wa son one of the new Bavaria's (a 55' if I remember correctly) - a Farr Designed one. The best Bavaria I've yet seen, and I'd be happy to take that!!
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:14   #9
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Hello,
You wrote : "From private owner" and (...) If we assume I buy the boat from e.g. Croatia".
In Croatia, you will have mostly charter boats to buy.
I think that in Italia, you will be more lucky, because with the crisis, prices are very low and a lot of owner's boat are to be be sold. Italian people - I don't know why - love nordic boats like Hallberg Rassy, Najad, Swann, etc... Maybe a little bit expansive for your budget, but it is to say there are a lot of quality boats to be sold now in Italia.
Sorry for my english, I am french ! And my boat is a Bavaria, my former boat a Beneteau and I do not see a lot of differences beetween these two brands.
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:50   #10
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pirate Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

I've solo'd 2 Beneteau's from the Caribbean to Europe/UK... one non stop and the second via the Azores... no major refits, no extra sails just the bog standard boat... no problems.
Last month I delivered a boat to Las Palmas.. a 2012 Lagoon 380 and the few days I was there I was amused as hell at the panic and preparations that were being made to get a perfectly well equipped boat that had just covered 2200 testing miles to get there.. ready for the Pussy ARC..
Folk make to big a deal of this so called 'Blue Water' voyage... you'd have a harder time sailing the length of the Med..
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:47   #11
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Thanks a lot for all the replies! Looks like the general recommendation is to go for older quality boats. What other boats would you consider besides Hallberg-Rassy and Najad? Swan is definitely too expensive.

I did some searches and one quality boat model that would fit to my budget is HR 352, for example this 1983 HR 352 located in Greece. Any comments on this? When looking boats like this what are the key things to consider and value?

Is there often a lot of expensive maintenance waiting if you buy 30 year old boat compared to newer ~10 year old boat? This is the main reason I was thinking a newer mass produced boat to avoid the repairs. Also when you're buying an older boat is there a high risk to get a boat with serious and expensive but hidden problems if you use (good) surveyor?
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:51   #12
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Another thing you don't mention is tankage. Most boats have too little water and diesel storage capability and you should consider installing extra tanks, if possible. Also not cheap.
Thanks for the advice! What would you consider as too little for tank capacities? For example HR 352 has around 300 liters both, do you think that's too little?
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:05   #13
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Try www.apolloduck.com if you have not already
If you want a newer boat at a good price shop in the Caribbean...
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:35   #14
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Is there often a lot of expensive maintenance waiting if you buy 30 year old boat compared to newer ~10 year old boat? This is the main reason I was thinking a newer mass produced boat to avoid the repairs. Also when you're buying an older boat is there a high risk to get a boat with serious and expensive but hidden problems if you use (good) surveyor?
With most boats there's a big hole in the ocean you try to fill from your wallet regardless of the age. Get a good surveyor and then get another, and a diver..
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:54   #15
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Thanks a lot for all the replies! Looks like the general recommendation is to go for older quality boats. What other boats would you consider besides Hallberg-Rassy and Najad? Swan is definitely too expensive.
In general that is not good advice, The fact is on a 30 year old boat , all the usual deck gear will be tired and lots of stuff will be close to replacement dates.

A good built ion the last 10 years well minded boat like a Benny or Jeanneau or similar will have you up and sailing faster and with less money then some 30 year old money pit.

dave
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