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Old 09-12-2013, 11:50   #16
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The fact is on a 30 year old boat , all the usual deck gear will be tired and lots of stuff will be close to replacement dates.
The fact is many 30yrs old boats sailed regularly have most of their deck gear allready renewed. Worst is lowsy or lacking maintenance whatever the age.. just saying..
BR Teddy
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:31   #17
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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The fact is many 30yrs old boats sailed regularly have most of their deck gear allready renewed. Worst is lowsy or lacking maintenance whatever the age.. just saying..
BR Teddy
I completely agree. It is silly to dismiss all 30 (or more) YO boats as money pits. Similarly silly to assume all 10YO (or younger) are not.

Everything is down to the age and WEAR of the systems on board. My 30YO Baltic is in better shape than most 5YO boats, and I am not being delusional. Everything on ANY boat has a life cycle. When you buy a secondhand boat you need to find out which systems are in which part of their life cycle, and so when they will need replacing. This is also dependent on how the boat was used (say: circumnavigated in big storms or sheltered in a marina), and how it was maintained. This could mean that a 10YO boat will be more costly than a 30YO boat to get to the same standard. Often, it will be the other way around.

One thing to consider also is how older boats have been modernised - or not. If you plan to sail with single- or double-handed crew, you will not want hanked on sails for all situations. If the boat is top rigged, and the forestay is placed well forward, then you can't fly a furling gennaker because it can't clear the forestay when tacking. Does the boat have an easy way of installing a storm jib? For mine, I'm installing a removeable forestay for that. If your boat is not usually equipped with that, it might mean you need re-inforcing below decks. These are some of things you should be considering if you want to do offshore trips.

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Thanks for the advice! What would you consider as too little for tank capacities? For example HR 352 has around 300 liters both, do you think that's too little?
Your question is a bit hard to answer, as it is dependent on a lot of things. A typical rule is 3 l/p/day for drinking water. A typical ARC crossing for a 35 footer is a bit over 3 weeks. You need to budget for at least 50% delay in arriving, so count on 30 -35 days. That would mean the HR's tanks are OK for a crossing of 3 people, provided the water is used for nothing but drinking water (no washing dishes, showers, etc).

Diesel tankage requirements are largely dependent on your power consumption. On a 120Ah/day (seems to be about average for the boats in ARC under 40ft) template, you need to run your diesel engine for 3 - 4 hours a day, consuming around 15 - 20 litres per day. This would mean you run out of diesel after 15 days. Of course, you can have alternative sources of power (wind, solar, tow, fuel cell). On a 35 footer you would probably need to use a combination of those to keep the batteries topped up (wind generation doesn't work so well on trade winds, tow generator works best at 6 - 8 kts which you won't achieve on average, and for solar you would not have enough room for many panels, on most boats). Ideally I would try and avoid using the engine altogether for power and keep my diesel for emergencies when I can't sail the boat anymore.

In the end, only the skipper can decide what they need and what they want. I've found with my boat that it is taking me a couple of years of reading up and improving the boat to get to where I want to be.


Onno
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Old 16-12-2013, 03:23   #18
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Try www.apolloduck.com if you have not already
If you want a newer boat at a good price shop in the Caribbean...
Thanks, haven't tried that yet. Caribbean is definitely a good option if you happen to live in that side of the Atlantic It's a bit too expensive and time consuming to go there to check a boat
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Old 16-12-2013, 04:16   #19
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Hi,
I have just bought a Scanmar 40 to do an RTW in. Beautiful craftsmanship and great sailing boats. There are two others for sale, one in the UK and one in Greece both within your budget. I would highly recommend these yachts.
Hope you find the boat of your dreams.

Andy
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Old 16-12-2013, 04:42   #20
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

After reading all the posts my conclusion is that the boat model and age are not the most important factors but the condition of the boat and equipment (and also the amount of equipment) which makes sense. However, since I'm buying the boat from abroad I can't go and check a huge number of boats which means I would need to make a pre-filtering based on the information available. Considering that I'd have two questions:

Would it make sense to first ask a surveyor to check the boat before flying there myself or vice versa?

Below is prioritized equipment/check list. Am I missing something or would you change the prioritization?
1. Hull condition (leaks, repairs, water inside fiberglass etc.)
2. Engine (age, hours, maintenance)
3. Sails (number of, age, condition)
4. Electronics: VHF ,GPS, radar, autopilot (age)
5. Batteries, winches, anchors, dinghy, life raft, bimini, solar panels etc.
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Old 16-12-2013, 04:44   #21
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Hi,
I have just bought a Scanmar 40 to do an RTW in. Beautiful craftsmanship and great sailing boats. There are two others for sale, one in the UK and one in Greece both within your budget. I would highly recommend these yachts.
Hope you find the boat of your dreams.

Andy
Thanks Andy, I'll check the Scanmars

Sam
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Old 16-12-2013, 05:22   #22
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Sam, that is a good list to start with. I would add the rigging age to the list and aim to replace between the 10 and 15 years point.

If you left the Eastern Med in the Spring then you want to be through Biscay by beginning of September and therefore Finland end of October. That shouldn't be quite easy to achieve. As for the stuff for the ARC, hopefully as Dave an Onno have said it's not required for what is a 3 week crossing and you have several years in Europe to add the bits you do want without going mad in the first month with a huge shopping list.

The Moody would be a good choice, please don't buy it because I want too but there are lots of other good French, German and Swedish yachts worth considering.

Watch the VAT issue if its an ex=charter yacht, not a problem to pay it and the asking price should reflect this.

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Old 26-12-2013, 03:36   #23
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Hi again,

Thanks for all the comments so far! I have done quite a lot of boat browsing and below is my current shortlist:

Would be super helpful to hear some comments and thoughts on the listing above! Also if you see some boat model that is missing from above and could fit there please point out! (Unfortunately no Swans and Najads available within my budget...)

Would be also great to hear what size of winches you consider good for blue water sailing for ~40 ft boats and how many hours is (too) much for an engine (it of course depends a lot of the maintenance but to get some guideline, e.g. Moody 425 above has over 10000 hours which I'm sure is a huge amount!)
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Old 28-12-2013, 05:54   #24
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Sam, the Scanmar has a Volvo 2003T which could be a problem.

My money is on the Moody 425, a very popular boat for what you are planning.

Owners Association if you haven't seen it. Forum under "Info Exchange"

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Old 28-12-2013, 05:58   #25
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The moody is 24 years old and would need careful surveying

Both the 39i and the 423 are good sea boats. I especially like the 39i , fast too

Dave
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Old 28-12-2013, 06:56   #26
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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I would really say you should be very attentive when you look at a boat at all its accessories. Are they heavy duty enough for blue water? We have a Jenneau Sun FAst, which is a performance cruiser. The reason we bought this boat is that everything is one size heavier than on a standard cruiser. Winches are bigger, sheet locks are bigger, cleats bigger, everything is made for heavy duty usage.
What are your which sizes?

My SO40 has 40's on the cabin top & 44's in the cockpit.
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Old 28-12-2013, 07:50   #27
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

All boats need a careful survey, no matter their age. Not crazy about the Benni 423 with that galley layout but its perfect for marina living. The rest are a good cross section of boats and it would depend on newer equipment installed as well as general condition and of course the interior layout. Charter boats normally have high engine hours and more wear and tear but are cheaper to purchase. The Jeaneau looks OK but unless you need 3 double bunks it screws up long term storage if you decided to cruise long term. Most of the charter boats have minimal long term storage because of course its not needed for their intended use. Sometimes you can add this storage with a good carpenter and some $$$. Good luck with your search.
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Old 28-12-2013, 08:39   #28
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

If you find a boat that on paper looks real good then your idea of paying a good surveyor a few hundred dollars to do a pre purchase inspection is a good one. Its exactly what we did when we purchased our boat but I still made it conditional on my personal inspection even after the survey was done. Do your homework, sit down with your wife and try to imagine actually living on one of these boats "after" you have stored everything you want to bring with you. Some lighter displacement boats sail better than others when lightly loaded but as soon as you get them in cruise mode they become doggy. Most new cruisers really change their tune after they have loaded up all the crap people carry with them these days. Don't look at the open space as its not good storage space, look at all the cubby holes,cabinets and good dry storage areas because this is where builders save money, additional cabinetry is expensive and its seldom found on newer charter type boats. I cruised for a couple of years with a boat that was quick but not when loaded up, it was a flat bottom boat with next to no bilge and the storage space was less than needed so every damn time I needed to get at something I had to unload the whole area. I got quite a bit of water aboard beating into compressed trades and the pump could not get at the water as it sloshed across the boat going up into the cabinets and getting everything wet. I had to hove to every half hour to pump the stupid little bilge. Do your homework because its a royal pain when you buy something flashy that doesn't stand up to the job at hand. If your real plan is to hang out in one area and not cross oceans then almost any boat will do the job.
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:25   #29
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pirate Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

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Thanks, haven't tried that yet. Caribbean is definitely a good option if you happen to live in that side of the Atlantic It's a bit too expensive and time consuming to go there to check a boat
I got a 2 week return with Air France to SMX then caught a coach from Victoria to Paris to catch the flight.. stopped in cheap bed only accommodation @ $40/nite while I looked around there... got a return flight to Antigua.. nosed around there for 2 days then flew back.. found my Bene 321 four days before I was due to fly back... had a great time till then... after that it only got better.
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Old 20-01-2014, 15:13   #30
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Re: Buying from Meds, Sailing to Finland: Boat Recommendations and Other Tips

Thanks for all your comments. I have been thinking this quite a lot and my current choice would be this Hallberg-Rassy 38 for a couple of reasons:
  • Well known brand
  • Current owner is the boat's second owner
  • Based on the information I have received from the current owner it's in good condition and very well equipped.
  • New engine
  • Doubts: Old boat, enough head room for me (I'm 1.88m), how the long keel works compared to new bulb ones?

The other option I've been thinking a bit is Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43 DS which is quite different boat.
  • Lot's of space, airy and bright interior
  • Faster(?) than HR38 (bulb keel, longer waterline)
  • Doubts: Not as well equipped as HR38

Would be great if someone can share experiences about the performance of HR38 compared to newer boats with a bulb keel. Is it a huge difference? Of course I'm buying the boat for cruising, but speed and tacking angle are still interesting.

The other question I'd have is the surveyor. Irrespectively of which boat I choose I need an excellent surveyor. Can you give any hints how to find such? Is there a web site with reviews or can you recommend someone?

The owner of the HR38 is going to his boat mid-March so I won't be able to see it before that. I've been trying to find a HR38 from Finland to ask the owner is he could show me his boat but there is only one HR38 in Finland and her owner has denied giving his contact information. Do you know if HR382 or some other HR boat is sufficiently close to HR38 so it would make sense to try to visit it to check headroom etc?

Thanks again for your help!
Sam
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