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Old 13-04-2019, 15:19   #16
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

On average though I don't think sellers are getting asking price in the used sailboat market...in Florida at least...
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Old 13-04-2019, 15:28   #17
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

WELL; It seems I'm not the only one to determine many would-be buyers can be objectionable. Also, what's with saying sellers should be more "realistic"? Does that person mean a seller should always accept a low ball offer? I think the would-be buyers need to be more realistic.
As for keeping the boat clean & meticulous for the period of time it takes to sell, this can be a very onerous & time consuming matter but many of us do it because we are hoping someone with money & integrity will determine the boat has the kind of value reflected in the asking price. As in the sale of just about anything, one should be prepared for a little bargaining but does that mean a seller has to accept what borders on verbal insults?

Here's my opinion: I have a custom built Full Keel cruising boat for sale, (similar to Pardy's "Serraffyn"). It was evaluated for Insurance purposes at $140K "replacement value" by a professional appraiser, in August, 2015. My advertised ASKING PRICE is $35K Canadian … a very reasonable figure.
Although classified as "owner completed", most of the work was done by professional contractors in the marine industry. I know that everything was built to high standards.

Due to personal health failure, I was forced to put the boat on the market a year later. Since then I have had a few viewers interested but always offering lowball figures. Knowing the quality of products installed & the quality of workmanship, I have a certain value in mind I will accept & I will not go below that. So WHY do the potential buyers figure I should accept their low ball offer? I can realize more by dismantling the boat & sell the items individually. The BMW single cyl. 12hp engine (15hrs running) alone will sell for more than U$5K … the spars & rigging have a high value but are boat size restricted as is the case with the Premium built Cruising sails that have only been hoisted 5 times for a 4 or 5hr afternoon sail. Rigging blocks, five winches, the primaries being ST's … Manual Muir Windlass, CQR anchor & 300ft of 1/4" GALV. CHAIN; a S.S. bowsprit & a boomkin can also bring a high resale price. The propane cabin heater, stove, electric water pumps; A Never used head, holding tank with macerator & Y valve; Whale bilge pumps, 2 - 25 ltr fuel tanks, 3 - 25 ltr. water tanks ... all basically as new … the heater & stove have never been commissioned.
Do you see my point? This is why potential buyers are unrealistic, they simply have no clue of REAL VALUE.
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Old 13-04-2019, 15:37   #18
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

Deleted duplicate post.
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Old 13-04-2019, 16:11   #19
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

When a boat has a small, narrow market, or when it is in a more remote location, it can take longer to sell. Your boat is the perfect example. But in reality, unless you’re selling/buying a truly mass-market boat in a populated area, then most boats are small market sales.

The attitude that sellers don’t know how to value and price their boats is usually the one presented by the obnoxious low-ballers. To go in assuming they are desperate to sell, just because the boat has been on the market for a while, is a foolish. Only the sellers knows for sure what their circumstances are.

Assess what a boat is worth to you. If that amount is significantly below the asking price, don’t be surprised if the seller brushes you off or completely ignores you. But who knows… you might be right.
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Old 13-04-2019, 16:26   #20
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

Quote:
Do you see my point? This is why potential buyers are unrealistic, they simply have no clue of REAL VALUE.
Bob, while your boat sounds ok and possibly a decent value at your price, if you think you could sell an elderly BMW 12 (not one of BMW's finest efforts) for more than 5000 USD, perhaps it is YOU who have no idea of real value.

Selling the bits that make up the whole of a cruising yacht isn't a fun activity, nor one likely to generate a big fraction of what the owner thinks they are worth. If you think boat buyers work hard at bargaining, try the folks who throng marine flea markets... these are true bargain hunters and not great sources of income!

IMO, for every ill-informed buyer who lacks market knowledge, there are an equal number of ill-informed sellers who can only remember how much their boat has cost them and harbor hopes of recouping the lot. This leads me to the observation that we have posters who find "low ball" offers insulting. OK, but to me, "firm"asking prices that are unrealistically high are equally insulting... only the polarity has been reversed!

I'm not saying that your pricing is insulting, for I have no knowledge of your boat beyond an enthusiastic description, but there are for sure examples to be found in our own CF ads as well as Gumtree, etc. As others have posted, if a boat has been on the market for a year, unsold, the price is too high.

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Old 13-04-2019, 16:56   #21
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

Really???? I am amazed by the number of un-realistic Sellers, who seem to believe their 30 or 40 year old vessel, with the original motor, is worth what its original retail price was! If you have ever paid a qualified marine mechanic to remove and replace a small inboard diesel with a new powerplant and appurtenances, including a full warranty, perhaps you would understand why Buyers are not willing to pay the Sellers dream price for their as-is, fully depreciated sailboat.
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Old 13-04-2019, 18:02   #22
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

Even if the survey is useless for negotiating purpose, does not mean it's a waste of money.

Could easily cause you as buyer to just walk away realizing how much overall work is required.

I completely respect the needs and time value of the seller, but unfortunately, that just the nature of the process if you're trying to get "fair value" back, unfortunately that's not the default outcome of a quick and easy process, usually requires a long and painful one.

You can see how nice people just get boats donated to them by sellers that can afford to do that.
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Old 13-04-2019, 19:48   #23
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

A surveyors perspective on valuations.

How much is she worth .... A crap shoot.
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Old 13-04-2019, 23:20   #24
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

While living in Hawaii, I saw a boat for sale in Latitude 38, in San Francisco. I called the seller and made an offer, he accepted. I sent him a check, deal done.we were both happy.
Six months later I returned to SF, picked up the boat and sailled her around the world. I paid $5000. for the boat. Best deal I ever made. The boat was a Cascade 29.
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Old 14-04-2019, 00:41   #25
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Bob, while your boat sounds ok and possibly a decent value at your price, if you think you could sell an elderly BMW 12 (not one of BMW's finest efforts) for more than 5000 USD, perhaps it is YOU who have no idea of real value. Jim
Jim, you surprise me. You sound like many others who condemn a great product when they know little about it. Did you know, although "elderly", this engine has only accumulated fifteen (15) running hours? Yes, I bought it many years ago & put it in storage in my home until I was ready to install it in my boat. It just took much longer than I anticipated due to many reasons.
I have already received a request to purchase for the sum mentioned from a fellow in the USA, (should I decide to sell) to replace one he has had in his boat for many years. Furthermore, he is not the only sailboat owner that has shown an interest in buying it.
As for your comments about a product produced by BMW as being "not one of their finest" … how did you come to determine that? If it was by reading of various individuals personal tales of woe, let me say this: many problems blamed on a great product are often the result of poor maintenance or operation. I can say this with a wealth of knowledge gained from my career as a manufacturer's service representative over more than 30 years.
FYI: The BMW 12D was originally an air cooled engine by HATZ. It was, & still is, used to power small contractors machinery such as a cement mixer. It is as basic an engine as one could imagine.
BMW created a water jacket for the cylinder, thus making it a great little engine for small boats. It is designed with 'splash' lubrication, it uses a small diaphragm lift pump to supply fuel to the injection system which is also of a very simple design & the alternator is built into the flywheel, all to the benefit of contractors employees who know little if anything about small (diesel) engines … not unlike many small boat sailors. There are no moving parts on the exterior with the exception of the drive shaft. A totally safe engine for most people.
If the user reads the manual, there is little to go wrong. The only thing I would warn is to be sure to shut the engine down before switching off the ignition key.
My engine runs "like new" because it basically is. I also have a complete engine rebuild kit for when the occasion arrives, as well as other spare parts that may be expected to cause a problem eg: fuel pump, injector tips, copper gaskets for fuel connections etc.
Look up the price of a "rebuilt" D12 engine & you'll see they still retain value.
I'm totally amazed that you of all people on this forum, would comment in the manner in which you did.
Maybe I should not have been surprised, considering many people come to this forum for technical advice from others who are themselves, not that well informed on the problem under discussion. Those people are often looking for a 'quick fix' so they will not need to pay a technician for his knowledge.
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Old 14-04-2019, 01:54   #26
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

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Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599 View Post
Jim, you surprise me. You sound like many others who condemn a great product when they know little about it. Did you know, although "elderly", this engine has only accumulated fifteen (15) running hours? Yes, I bought it many years ago & put it in storage in my home until I was ready to install it in my boat. It just took much longer than I anticipated due to many reasons.
I have already received a request to purchase for the sum mentioned from a fellow in the USA, (should I decide to sell) to replace one he has had in his boat for many years. Furthermore, he is not the only sailboat owner that has shown an interest in buying it.
As for your comments about a product produced by BMW as being "not one of their finest" … how did you come to determine that? If it was by reading of various individuals personal tales of woe, let me say this: many problems blamed on a great product are often the result of poor maintenance or operation. I can say this with a wealth of knowledge gained from my career as a manufacturer's service representative over more than 30 years.
FYI: The BMW 12D was originally an air cooled engine by HATZ. It was, & still is, used to power small contractors machinery such as a cement mixer. It is as basic an engine as one could imagine.
BMW created a water jacket for the cylinder, thus making it a great little engine for small boats. It is designed with 'splash' lubrication, it uses a small diaphragm lift pump to supply fuel to the injection system which is also of a very simple design & the alternator is built into the flywheel, all to the benefit of contractors employees who know little if anything about small (diesel) engines … not unlike many small boat sailors. There are no moving parts on the exterior with the exception of the drive shaft. A totally safe engine for most people.
If the user reads the manual, there is little to go wrong. The only thing I would warn is to be sure to shut the engine down before switching off the ignition key.
My engine runs "like new" because it basically is. I also have a complete engine rebuild kit for when the occasion arrives, as well as other spare parts that may be expected to cause a problem eg: fuel pump, injector tips, copper gaskets for fuel connections etc.
Look up the price of a "rebuilt" D12 engine & you'll see they still retain value.
I'm totally amazed that you of all people on this forum, would comment in the manner in which you did.
Maybe I should not have been surprised, considering many people come to this forum for technical advice from others who are themselves, not that well informed on the problem under discussion. Those people are often looking for a 'quick fix' so they will not need to pay a technician for his knowledge.
All I can say, as the past (happy) owner of a BMW D35, I've been around the BMW owners and associates for a while, and my observations were that the little single cylinder models had a very poor reputation amongst those who owned them. Some of those "features" that you tout are the very things that were high failure items. Splash lubrication? Was abandoned in most engine designs in teh 1920s or thereabouts, because of failure modes (like when a boat heels over and the splash isn't so great any more) that were avoided by pressure oil pumps for lubing the bearings. Alternator built into the flywheel? Really great for yachting... I bet that Balmar has a special three stage regulator for that alternator (sarcasm time) because BMW sure doesn't and we all know of the value of programmed charging. Engine converted from air to liquid cooling by BMW? Surely an engine designed from the start for liquid cooling is a better choice for a yacht.

You have full rebuild parts sets! That's good, because sourcing parts for any of the Hatz based engines has become awkward... another reason to shy away from them! And you know that your engine runs "like new" because it is actually hardly run in. Great! But hardly a voice of great experience with the engine and its woes... you have no experience to speak of with it. I will grant that if you have a verifiable buyer at 5000 bucks, then in fact the engine is worth that much... by definition. Let us know when the check clears!

Now, as to your "high value" spars and sails... High cost to you, but of limited value to others unless they should have a very similar design to your custom boat. On the open market, used spars and sails, even if basically unused command pretty small prices compared to their original cost. A look through the Bacon on line catalog of used and old stock sails will show this to be true.

I won't carry on further, and I hope that you, or whoever should buy your boat or engine, will have great success with it. I was only using your example to show that sellers sometimes have exaggerated ideas of the value of their boats or parts, and that the "insult" of a lowball offer is not that different from the "insult" of a inflated asking price. If your boat is indeed worth what you think, then it will surely sell soon, won't it?

Jim
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Old 14-04-2019, 05:31   #27
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

Like many folks here, I have bought and sold many boats in my lifetime. I have owned both power and sail, as small as a Sunfish and as big as an older Chris Craft 33 "Coho", which was maintained very well throughout its life and provided my wife and I seven full years of pure fun with only normal maintenance costs. I have tried using a Broker on three occasions, and have yet to complete a purchase with one. Why? For me the price of every boat is too high right from the beginning. I guess they expect haggling as part of the selling process. And I guess it usually is. I might be in a different group from many purchasers, as I don't want a high dollar newer boat. I want a really nice example of a time tested classic, in excellent overall condition, depicting a seller/owner who cares for their boat, the same as I care for mine. I am in the market now for our next new to us boat, will pay cash, and find myself looking at Cape Dory 27-30's, the Pacific Seacraft Flicka, Aquarius 24 Bristol Cutter, and a few other full keel 25-30 footers with the quality and capability to jump off of the East Coast and/or the Keys, head down to Bocos for a while then come home to North Carolina via Grenada, Barbados, up through the Bahamas and back up the ICW from South Florida. If it takes a year or so, I'm good with that too. By example I contacted a Broker of Nationally listed boats and he sent me several examples, all of which were priced at least five thousand dollars higher than any other examples I can find locally or on sailboatlistings.com which makes me wonder 1) Is there a price point that says, don't use a broker? 2) My budget is $30,000.00 USD and so I know I am able to look at many boats that I like that fit. 3) An ad with zero pictures of the engine turns me off instantly, as do ads that show the boat on stands saying just a little TLC needed and you are back to sailing. If I tell the Broker my standards of acceptance, why try to sell me something outside of my requirements? As a buyer, when I step on a boat, it takes about two minutes to see if it meets my needs, many I don't even need to step onto. I don't even like a dirty boat.....but then thats just me. Critical, yes I am. That money did not come easy to me, and it won't leave my pocket easy either. But experience tells me this, I have owned boats for more than forty years, I am a fair judge of most issues boats encounter. I know that a survey does not require a Broker. I know that for twenty plus years I have fully insured boats without a survey at times by agreed value terms, as some boats simply don't need a survey. But I would lastly like to say this....Courtesy, professionalism, and clear and concise communication between buyer, seller, and yes Brokers is the secret to success many times. We all hear of times when Brokers simply don't participate in this way, and if I have a Broker, I feel I have to agree upfront that its my money, my decision, my boat if I buy it, and my standards must be met. Some can do it that way, and others will try to circumvent you and do it their way. I say have all these talks before you sign anything, before you shake hands on a verbal deal, and do it every time........then you'll enjoy buying. On selling, pretty much the same, be professional, helpful, and realize you are representing someone else's dream. Show a quality, clean, and safe boat, and be truthful about its good and bad. Price the boat accordingly and stick close, till the money shows itself. Then decide to sell or walk away. It really can be that easy.
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Old 14-04-2019, 06:10   #28
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

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...As for your comments about a product produced by BMW as being "not one of their finest" … how did you come to determine that? If it was by reading of various individuals personal tales of woe, let me say this: many problems blamed on a great product are often the result of poor maintenance or operation. I can say this with a wealth of knowledge gained from my career as a manufacturer's service representative over more than 30 years.
FYI: The BMW 12D was originally an air cooled engine by HATZ. It was, & still is, used to power small contractors machinery such as a cement mixer. It is as basic an engine as one could imagine...
Sailorbob8599,

I want to share an idea with you. The idea is that a product is truly "great" when it can deliver it's advertised performance even with poor maintenance and operation practices. The designer of a "great" engine understands that most people tend to be lazy and complacent and designs the engine to tolerate human nature well. A "great" engine is like the proverbial Maytag washing machine: it just works, and the manufacturer's service representative really doesn't have a job.

It doesn't matter if the engine on a boat does an excellent job mixing cement on land. If that engine adapted to the boat requires more maintenance and more attention to operational practices than Engine B or Engine C options...then most people consider engines B or C to be better than the engine that requires more specific maintenance/operation practices. For most people, nothing else matters. Not the name of the engine maker, not what it looks like, not its design tolerances, not the manner of which its lubricated. Most people just want the damn thing to work reliably.

FWIW, I otherwise must assume that BMW has time specs on their engines, recommending tear-down/inspection after X amount of run time and/or Y number of calendar years, even if the engine is pickled. If this is true, the buyer of an old engine must tear it down or else s/he is exercising poor maintenance practices.
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Old 14-04-2019, 06:39   #29
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

I have been buying and selling boats for 20 years and can't count how many times I went to look at boats advertised by the seller in "excellent condition" or "creampuff" that turned out to be junk
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Old 14-04-2019, 06:54   #30
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Re: Buying and selling a sailboat

This CD 30 just arrived at my marina. A little over your budget but a nice looking boat.
https://ashleyyachts.com/boat/702177...dory-30-mk-ii/

I have no affiliation with the boat or owners, it was here in the fall and now back. A very pretty boat.
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