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Old 22-12-2015, 15:19   #31
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

How thick is the plating on the keel? I wouldn't worry about it, frankly. I built my 48' steel cutter over 20 years ago. I cast 10,000# of molten lead into the twin keels. (5,000" in each). Lead is pretty happy inside of iron. I've had no problem keeping paint on the keels or the hull during all that time.

Not sure if you have seen the Oyster threads, where the weight of the lead in the keel basically peeled the fiberglass/composite hull open, leading to rapid sinking. YIKES! I will be the first to admit that I have smacked a few rocks and reefs with my keels, putting some dents in the front edges. Probably a Beneteau or an Oyster would have dropped the keel off at some later point, considering some of the smacks we've taken. Oh, yes we have. And we just kept sailing, sometimes after spending a while to get unstuck. Sometimes we just bounced off after a mighty BAM! and kept sailing or motoring or motor-sailing.

Now, in light winds, a steel boat won't win any races. (The older I get, the happier I am to motor-sail.) But when it's nasty out, or rocks and reefs are out there in front of you, you will never regret the strength of steel.

Will my cast-lead keels "stand the test of time?" Well, they have been in salt water for 23 years now, ask me again in another couple of decades. In the meantime, I have NEVER regretted having steel between me and the ocean. NEVER. I have pounded on bottoms in waves that have shaken the mast like a whip, but never did I worry about my keel to hull joints (welded!), or my keels falling off. Never.





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Old 22-12-2015, 15:45   #32
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Sure a lot of passion displayed here by folks both knowledgeable and not so... especially considering that we don't really know what the symptoms are. The faults have been described as "bumps" and "folds", and perhaps some other terms that I missed.

To me, it is impossible to advise without some decent photos of the areas. "Bumps" could mean waviness between ribs, it could mean localized dimples, it could mean gross distortion. "Folds" could be serious faults... who knows?

So, again to the OP: if you want meaningful advice instead of arguments about metallurgy, show us some decent photos as Steady Hand suggested in an early post. Without that, it is all speculative and not very useful.

And nothing the OP posted suggested any faults i n the keel to hull joint, so worry about the keel falling off is pretty silly.

Jim
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Old 22-12-2015, 15:56   #33
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

this!?
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:11   #34
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
I really think you have some sort of bone to pick, and I don't know why. Take another look at those responses. You've called me a failure, uninformed, panic squad, a number of things. Dude - have a beer.

As I said, I have a lot of experience with taking on big projects. Often, particularly when the domain is new to you, the "honeymoon" phase can be misleading. I think when someone is considering buying a half-built boat with a lumpy keel, its not at all unwarranted to suggest that they consider something a with a little less work attached to it. I'm not his mommy or daddy, I'm not telling him what to do, I'm in a public forum attempting to do a little good by making this suggestion.

You want to publicly shame me because you don't agree with my advice? What gives, man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plpioko View Post
Hi,
I am new guy here. So welcome everyone. I have been saving for two years and next year I am planning to buy a cruising boat.

Out of many options I also have a possibility to buy almost ready hull (along with engine, rigging, equipment and even wood for interior) - 40foot long. I investigated the hull and it looks very professionally welded (it was welded in a steel mill) and then it was sold to a private owner. The task of a private owner was to fill out fin keel of that boat with 3 tones of lead and he did... however something went wrong (lead was too hot perhaps) and after pouring that 3 tones of liquid lead inside the fin keel it affected plates that form that keel and they changed their shape on sites. Basically there are small and medium bumps on that keel now. In your opinion how serious can be that issue? Is it something that in a future will compromise safety and/or performance? Can it be fixed without replacing that keel?

Looking forward to some help here.

Piotr
Sorry I could not provide you with pictures :/
Buy it and sell the lead if the price if right. You really need to do some real research on what the other cost will be even if you straighten out the keel.

Best of luck.
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:14   #35
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Sure a lot of passion displayed here by folks both knowledgeable and not so... especially considering that we don't really know what the symptoms are. The faults have been described as "bumps" and "folds", and perhaps some other terms that I missed.

To me, it is impossible to advise without some decent photos of the areas. "Bumps" could mean waviness between ribs, it could mean localized dimples, it could mean gross distortion. "Folds" could be serious faults... who knows?

So, again to the OP: if you want meaningful advice instead of arguments about metallurgy, show us some decent photos as Steady Hand suggested in an early post. Without that, it is all speculative and not very useful.

And nothing the OP posted suggested any faults i n the keel to hull joint, so worry about the keel falling off is pretty silly.

Jim
Very good points. Here are some tips for more useful photos: get a strong light to shine down the plates to emphasize any plate wobbles. Have somebody else hold a long straight-edge or better, a flexible batten. If the plate is just pulled in a bit at the frames, I'd say no worries at all. That's normal. See the submarine photo just above. They welded it for strong, not for pretty!
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Old 22-12-2015, 17:16   #36
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

The advice to be leary about taking on such a project is warranted. Building a boat, even from this partially competed state is a bigger job than most people have any idea about. Built a boat from a bare hull. Took more than a year of full time 12/7 labor, cost the tips of four fingers, and ended up cheaper to have bought a completed boat and fitting it out. The finished project was much better built than a stock boat but only another builder would appreciate that.

Using the uneven spots on the keel as a reason to bail out was totally from a position of ignorance about metal boat construction. A completely fair metal hull is something that would take a lot of care and time in construction. Fair is something that filler/fairing putty is made for.
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Old 22-12-2015, 17:33   #37
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Man, tough crowd.

Jim, Roverhi, i'm an electrical engineer. I'll be sure to repeatedly remind you of your ignorance and jump down your throats the next time you try to offer advice to someone asking about bank capacity, or charging systems, or anything remotely related to electricity. Jesus.

Actually an even better analogy would be this:

OP: 'i saved for years and am finally buying a cruising boat. of several options, theres a bare hull that has some wiring that looks a little strange'

Jim/rover/delancy: 'I dunno man maybe look for something a little more turn key'

Me: ' Well, you've gotten totally ignorant answers from people completely unknowledgable about electricity....'


Since when did CF set such a high bar for offering opinion? And when did I ever claim to know anything about steel? I think you folks are being a little unfair.

OP- Do not, under any circumstances, ask yourself if you'd rather be sailing instead of building that boat. Please accept my apologies for contributing to this thread before getting a material science degree.
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Old 22-12-2015, 18:57   #38
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Man, tough crowd.

Jim, Roverhi, i'm an electrical engineer. I'll be sure to repeatedly remind you of your ignorance and jump down your throats the next time you try to offer advice to someone asking about bank capacity, or charging systems, or anything remotely related to electricity. Jesus.

Actually an even better analogy would be this:

OP: 'i saved for years and am finally buying a cruising boat. of several options, theres a bare hull that has some wiring that looks a little strange'

Jim/rover/delancy: 'I dunno man maybe look for something a little more turn key'

Me: ' Well, you've gotten totally ignorant answers from people completely unknowledgable about electricity....'


Since when did CF set such a high bar for offering opinion? And when did I ever claim to know anything about steel? I think you folks are being a little unfair.

OP- Do not, under any circumstances, ask yourself if you'd rather be sailing instead of building that boat. Please accept my apologies for contributing to this thread before getting a material science degree.
Umm...

Chris, I think that you have me confused with some other dumb guy. My only p ost here was asking for photos so that we (collectively) could be a little more useful with our advice. Do you, with your lofty knowledge of engineering, think this was bad advice?

I don't.

Jim
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:16   #39
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

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Umm...

Chris, I think that you have me confused with some other dumb guy. My only p ost here was asking for photos so that we (collectively) could be a little more useful with our advice. Do you, with your lofty knowledge of engineering, think this was bad advice?

I don't.

Jim

Jim,

You missed the analogy.

My "lofty" engineering knowledge has nothing to do with it, that was the point.

You went out of your way to mention the "folks not so knowledgeable" in your original post, much like Roverhi going out of his way to point out the "ignorance" of even considering the lumpy keel to be a possible problem, much like Delancy doing whatever the hell that was earlier in the thread. (Which is precisely why I've taken this, possibly surprising, defensive posture.)

I thought that was behavior was odd, and my analogy was meant to demonstrate that: If a helpful poster steers someone away from a project boat, a project boat which just /happens/ to include some electrical problems, wouldn't it be odd to ridicule that helpful poster solely on the basis that they aren't an electrical engineer?

That is precisely the same as going out of your way to ridicule someone for steering folks away from a steel project boat on the basis that they don't know much about steel construction.

Nevermind.

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Old 22-12-2015, 19:22   #40
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Chris, o you not think that some of the advice that was offered came from folks who were not very knowledgeable? I do, because to offer advice, any knowledgeable person would want better information on what he was advising about, and that is what my p ost was about. I did not advise ANY action on the part of the OP beyond supplying photos.

So, "nevermind" right back atcha.

Jim
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:27   #41
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

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Chris, o you not think that some of the advice that was offered came from folks who were not very knowledgeable? I do, because to offer advice, any knowledgeable person would want better information on what he was advising about, and that is what my p ost was about. I did not advise ANY action on the part of the OP beyond supplying photos.

So, "nevermind" right back atcha.

Jim
Really, Jim? This doesn't set off any alarm bells?

Quote:

Out of many options I also have a possibility to buy almost ready hull (along with engine, rigging, equipment and even wood for interior) - 40foot long. I investigated the hull and it looks very professionally welded (it was welded in a steel mill) and then it was sold to a private owner. The task of a private owner was to fill out fin keel of that boat with 3 tones of lead and he did... however something went wrong
In your years of profound experience, you don't think you can offer the generic advice that maaaaybe if some of those "many options" include _finished sailboats_ it might be a good idea to consider passing on the project?

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Old 22-12-2015, 19:30   #42
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

This is a strange thread for so many disagreements. We didn't even get a picture of the problem but that doesn't seem to matter. I don't think it matters so much about the actual subject is but about something else but who knows.
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:33   #43
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

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This is a strange thread for so many disagreements. We didn't even get a picture of the problem but that doesn't seem to matter. I don't think it matters so much about the actual subject is but about something else but who knows.
Hehehe I've got the same feeling.
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:36   #44
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Really, Jim? This doesn't set off any alarm bells?



In your years of profound experience, you don't think you can offer the generic advice that maaaaybe if some of those "many options" include _finished sailboats_ it might be a good idea to consider passing on the project?

Crikeys, Chris, let me say it again: I am not advising the OP to buy or not buy this boat. I don't know enough to do so, and we were NOT asked in the OP to do so. He wanted advice about the keel "bumps", he got lots of conflicting opinions, all of which were based on a very vague description of the problem. I was trying to improve that situation by actually getting to see what the problem was.

Of course I agree that most such project boats in the hands of a newbie are ill advised, but he didn't ask about that.

Jim
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:44   #45
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Re: Bumps on a steel keel

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Crikeys, Chris, let me say it again: I am not advising the OP to buy or not buy this boat. I don't know enough to do so, and we were NOT asked in the OP to do so. He wanted advice about the keel "bumps", he got lots of conflicting opinions, all of which were based on a very vague description of the problem. I was trying to improve that situation by actually getting to see what the problem was.

Of course I agree that most such project boats in the hands of a newbie are ill advised, but he didn't ask about that.

Jim
Wait we only get to answer the questions people ASKED?!? That doesn't sound like the internet.



The bug up my ass isn't about whether or not people tell this guy to get the boat.

The bug up my ass is the claim repeated by many in this thread, including yourself, that the folks suggesting to look into the other options are somehow "not knowledgeable." I've seen enough projects to give one, even with scant details like this, a "sniff test".

It smelled funny to me, and I mentioned that, and that has now been criticized several times, which is, in my opinion, utterly ridiculous.
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