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Old 22-11-2017, 10:54   #1
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Bow cleat for solent stay?

In all my reading about storm tactics, I have become convinced that an inner forestay that can carry a small jib or storm jib would be an important addition to my Albin Vega 27.

Further motivation is that my forestay carries a furling unit, which would either require a special storm jib arrangement to go over the furled sail, or would taking down the sail -- which isn't something I'm too keen on, especially in situations that require a storm jib.

A second bow cleat (the one further aft) was added to the boat sometime in its past. I presume this was added when it last circumnavigated to handle an extra bow line in the Panama Canal, or just for general convenience. I mainly use it for the snubber line on anchor.

In any case, it's occupying the location where I'd want to mount the hull fitting for a solent stay, which has me considering using it itself as the attachment point for a solent stay. I would affix a block arrangement here when needed to give a 4-to-1 advantage for tensioning the stay.

My question to the masses is whether or not it would be strong enough to handle the loads of a storm jib? The backing plate is about 3 x 7", as pictured, which is substantial, but probably not as good as a design that would transfer the load to the hull, instead of the deck.
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Old 22-11-2017, 11:51   #2
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

"My question to the masses is whether or not it would be strong enough to handle the loads of a storm jib? The backing plate is about 3 x 7", as pictured, which is substantial, but probably not as good as a design that would transfer the load to the hull, instead of the deck."

I faced a similar situation when I decided to add an inner (Solent) forestay on my Islander 36 several years ago. My decision was to have the inner forestay load be between the mast and hull, and not the stress the deck. The set-up has served well in four CA-HI crossings and a few rough CA coastal passages including three gales where I used a small staysail or storm jib. Off shore I keep the storm jib hanked on in a bag with sheets, and clip the forestay to a chain plate to keep the foredeck clear.

Here's a summary of the installation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HRw...ew?usp=sharing

Here's an image of a staysail on the inner forestay in a broad reach:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kvDqOxX1KyDAVh4E2

Good luck!
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Old 22-11-2017, 11:57   #3
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

A friend rigged a deck fitting to the deck of her Catalina 42. She had her stay rigged so that it was removable on a pelican hook. She also had a cable rigged inside the boat. If I remember correctly it was set up from the backing plate of the deck fitting, to a tabbed bulkhead on the inside the forepeak. The load was therefore transferred from the stay to the hull.
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Old 22-11-2017, 12:39   #4
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgmo View Post
"My question to the masses is whether or not it would be strong enough to handle the loads of a storm jib? The backing plate is about 3 x 7", as pictured, which is substantial, but probably not as good as a design that would transfer the load to the hull, instead of the deck."

I faced a similar situation when I decided to add an inner (Solent) forestay on my Islander 36 several years ago. My decision was to have the inner forestay load be between the mast and hull, and not the stress the deck. The set-up has served well in four CA-HI crossings and a few rough CA coastal passages including three gales where I used a small staysail or storm jib. Off shore I keep the storm jib hanked on in a bag with sheets, and clip the forestay to a chain plate to keep the foredeck clear.

Here's a summary of the installation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HRw...ew?usp=sharing

Here's an image of a staysail on the inner forestay in a broad reach:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kvDqOxX1KyDAVh4E2

Good luck!
Incredibly informative! I like the idea of using a turnbuckle, or a short length of cable to transfer the load to the hull, but I don't know if I want to drill a hole through my bow just yet. I'll have to see if there's an alternative way/location to mount a strong hull attachment.
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Old 22-11-2017, 12:45   #5
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

Not being familiar with the construction of your boat, I'll not comment on the strength issue. But, I doubt if you will be able to get adequate stay tension with a 4 part whip. If you need to get to windward with a storm jib, having a very tight stay is pretty important. The usual method of tensioning is either a Highfield lever or a rigging screw, perhaps one with integral handles for quickly tightening it.

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Old 22-11-2017, 13:05   #6
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

" I don't know if I want to drill a hole through my bow just yet. I'll have to see if there's an alternative way/location to mount a strong hull attachment."

You could probably avoid drilling by glassing in an attachment point (eye or loop) on the inside of the bow that would be strong enough, and better than loading your deck.
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Old 23-11-2017, 10:31   #7
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

I am intersted in the same project for my Tartan30. I would be afraid to load the cleat in that direction without some serious reinforcement that would transfer the load. I was thinking of fabbing a bar, or rib of sorts that would run athwartship and attach to the hull on each side. That would distribute the boat all the way across the deck and to the hull.....I think. The trick would be to keep it from being a "head knocker" in the v-birth.
Also would like to hear about the specs on what looks to be a DIY Bowsprit. I am just not sure what diameter and wall thickness I need to use. Best of luck!

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Old 23-11-2017, 10:32   #8
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

After digging around in the front of the boat yesterday evening, I concluded that if I'm going to use the bow of the boat as an anchor point for the stay's deck attachment, then the point where the stay meets the deck would have to be in the vicinity of the hawsepipe to allow the reinforcement cable/turnbuckle to go through the anchor locker and be aligned with the stay itself.

The problem is that there just isn't much room on deck right there. Having a cable or a turnbuckle in the anchor locker would also cause issues getting the anchor rode in and out. It's already pretty packed in there when I have all the rode aboard.

The attached picture shows the green stay being where I'd like it be, but I can't run a reinforcement cable through my v-berth. The red one shows a version going through the anchor locker instead.
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Old 23-11-2017, 11:10   #9
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

I found this:

installing a babystay

Which provides an option to reinforce the existing tabbed bulkhead at the forepeak. However, the forward bow cleat lies directly atop the bulkhead.
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Old 23-11-2017, 11:47   #10
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

Ryban, the comments I made on your other thread about sails assumed hank on jibs. Since you have a roller furler, I agree that an inner or solent is really needed. P.M. me with a mailing address and I will send you a deck fitting for a staysail. You will still need all of the re-enforcement that has been mentioned, but this is a solid hunk of hardware from a larger boat. I bought my HOUNDS (the hardware for attaching the stay to the mast) from Rigrite. With a solent you wont need the hardware for running backs, but I opted for a more conventional inner forestay (with release lever) to keep the storm sail antics farther from the bow and for long passages where you wont be tacking very often, you can leave the inner attached. A lot is just personal choice or who gives the best argument for one or the other, but you can use the deck hardware piece for either an inner or a solent. P.M. me. _____Grant.
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Old 23-11-2017, 13:02   #11
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

I have the same situation on my Vega. You have a lot of clutter on your fore-deck. Personally I would remove the forward cleat/bollard and use that as the location of the stay. The chain locker bulkhead is OK for a hardpoint but just barely and would require a lot of beefing up due to it being thin plywood with a big hole in the center.
My Vega has a mast hound with running backstays between the mast head and the spreaders. This was my solution (as recommended by the Vega Club) for a storm jib. Install a bow eye. On the backside of the bow eye install a pre-fabricated tab with attach point. On the deck directly above the bow eye (where your forward cleat/bollard is currently) install pad eyes sandwiched above and below the deck (one facing up, one facing down). Next, install a cable/chain with turnbuckle between the bow eye tab and the inside down facing padeye. Finally, attach your stay to the outside pad eye. You may want to beef up the area around the bow eye, as well as installing running backstays if you mast starts to bend under load. You may be able to tab the bottom side of your bollard/cleat and use it as an attach point, just an idea. Hope this helps,,, enjoy the turkey.
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Old 23-11-2017, 13:04   #12
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

FWIW: ON our previous boat (36 foot ex race boat), I installed a deck fitting for an inner forestay, and reinforced it with a removable rigging screw and short cable that did run through the notch in the v-berth. I glassed a rib into the hull to take the load... simple job, not very critical as to dimensions. We would only rig it when going off shore, and it took all of a couple of minutes and no tools. We never slept forward in that boat when at sea, and I doubt if you will either. The reinforcing stay didn't interfere with use of the area for storage.

With the advent of Dyneema, in your case you could likely get away with a simple lashing instead of the wire and screw that we used. This would be inexpensive, easy to rig and to store when not in use. I think this is a viable approach, so give it some thought.

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Old 23-11-2017, 14:24   #13
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

I too have pondered an inner forestay, and I really wanted it to be lined up on the bulkhead or at least immediately behind it with a large backing plate that might also tie into the bulkhead. I'd second beefing up the bulkhead too. Your drawing has me thinking about a 1/4" 1x19 cable between plates bolted to the hull and deck with turnbuckle between, aft of the bulkhead so it would be invading the v-berth, not the chain locker, as Jim mentions above. Is that what you were thinking? I could see that. You say you can't run a reinforcement cable in there. Why not? Something more to ponder.

edit, not a cable but a solid rod or bar.
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Old 23-11-2017, 14:33   #14
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

Behind the chain locker bulkhead is a water tank sub floor in the V berth. It is a triangle shape hard plastic that is about three foot wide. Aft of that would put the stay too far back on the deck in my opinion. Just need to get a bigger boat.
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Old 23-11-2017, 14:40   #15
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Re: Bow cleat for solent stay?

Ah, I see. Well given the angle of the bow roller, how about move the bow cleat over and run the cable down through there to the base of the bulkhead but still miss the water tank? Is that possible?
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