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Old 25-04-2013, 10:57   #31
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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Well, yes, but it's good information and some have even mentioned the something about the nature of the sailboat they were using.
Then I would suggest that the narrow Pearson Vanguard, with water to the top of the primary winches, is not the best in a blow!
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Old 25-04-2013, 11:09   #32
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

I have wondered if a boat that can be designed to have a ballast tank that can be filled with water to make it heavier would be useful when it needs to sit out a big storm, even at anchor. I would think heavier would be better in this situation, not going anywhere so weight isn't a liability. Been thinking I might design such a thing into my boat.
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Old 25-04-2013, 11:28   #33
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

So, I've tried to think this through, only water ballast above the waterline helps right?
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Old 25-04-2013, 11:55   #34
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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So, I've tried to think this through, only water ballast above the waterline helps right?
Water in the hulls below the waterline would be best.
Just think of a water-ballasted trailered sailboat. The water is displacing air,
so it just makes the boat heavier, and you want weight low as possible.

I'm thinking one could just fill up jugs of water and put them in the boat to weigh it down for more stability. In fact, been thinking of putting EMPTY 1-liter bottles in the water tight bow compartments, so even if holed, it would stay bouyant with the bottles. But one could then fill them with water.
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Old 25-04-2013, 12:01   #35
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

Why not get some rugged waterbags, rather than 1liter bottles?

Oh, and you don't want weight up high. That's about the worst scenario I can think of: Sloshing water up high.
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Old 25-04-2013, 13:05   #36
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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I'm thinking one could just fill up jugs of water and put them in the boat to weigh it down for more stability.
Now that is some fear thinking! I don't believe I would go out in a boat that has the need for such a plan!
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Old 25-04-2013, 13:40   #37
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

A center of gravity well beneath the center of bouancy provides for that righting arm that keeps the boat stable and upright. Lead in the keel does this so well because it can not change it's location. If you're using water for ballast, it will work against you if it is able to shift it's position. Any heavy cargo must be fixed. I'd have a difficult time finding low and secure stored for a huge number of little plastic water bottles.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:38   #38
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

Others here (most of 'em?!) with wayyy more ruff stuff experiance than me - and also far more experiance of different boats, especially the modern designs. But nonetheless I feel that "seakindliness" is perhaps something that is no longer near the top of a modern designers drawing board - perhaps because it impacts on other more important design factors (the ones the punters actually write cheques for and not what they only say they want!) and possibly also because a need for seakindliness is not included in the brochure - as in those the world is always nice and sunny .

Not to say that everything built in ye olden days was better - back then they also built plenty of sh#te yer wouldn't want to be on when it gets cold, wet and scary .
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:50   #39
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

[QUOTE=David_Old_Jersey;1220224].............. a need for seakindliness is not included in the brochure - as in those the world is always nice and sunny ................... [QUOTE]

I like this insight. The brochure doesn't show the white knuckles on the wheel while breaking a sloppy inlet. ....and the brochures always depict very small people standing in the galley!
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:53   #40
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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I have wondered if a boat that can be designed to have a ballast tank that can be filled with water to make it heavier would be useful when it needs to sit out a big storm, even at anchor. I would think heavier would be better in this situation, not going anywhere so weight isn't a liability. Been thinking I might design such a thing into my boat.
Not according to the laws of physics. My friend's boat sank during a Nor'easter that hit Boston harbor a few years ago. His boat did just fine while being hit by the choppy seas while tied to it's mooring. But as the bilge pumps eventually ran out of battery juice and could no longer bail the spray and rain, the boat became heavier and heavier until the added inertia provided by the thousands of pounds of water, plus the wave energy eventually dragged the mooing, crashed the boat into the rocks.... then it sank.

Theory doesn't always work so well in practice. He was able to watch the entire catastrophe unfold from his living room window.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:55   #41
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

something anti-modern boat people never seem to understand is that ............. they are much more seakind that they understand

the reason I think is that they still are thinking all those old design boat ratio thingies that used to be used
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:17   #42
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pirate Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

Yeah.... but that's like saying you believed 'The Perfect Storm' was verbatim... after the scene with the last reported radio conversation...
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:41   #43
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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Submersion of the primary winches is not generally an indicator of a boat's stiffness.
Personally I think stiffness is rather low on the list of characteristics which are essential to keeping a boat in one piece in bad weather.

Stiffness due to righting moment from deep ballast can be a liability to the rig in severely gusty, dynamically changeable conditions, and if carried to extremes can also make the motion dangerously cranky.

And some forms of stiffness, eg form stability, can be a liability for capsize.

I'm not making a pitch for tippyness, but some of the best seaboats are quite tender in terms of their ability to carry sail in racing contexts.

- - - - -

Scorn is regularly heaped on the notion of lightweight boats in bad conditions. My rule-of-thumb take on this (reduced to oversimplicity because I don't have time to be concise) is restricted to boats which are built strongly enough to cope with expected conditions:

A light boat is easy on itself; a heavy boat is easy on the crew.

Which is vaguely connected to why I harbour serious doubts about liferafts: the notion that they will necessarily provide a safe cocoon in conditions which can sink a well-found boat seems to me delusional.

A tiny, buoyant boat with a sufficiently strong rig will survive virtually anything, but will not necessarily provide the necessary sanctuary for the occupant(s) -- or provide means to control the direction of drift if there are dangers to be skirted.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:50   #44
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

Best boat I've ever owned in a "blow" was my 30-foot Angus Primrose, flush-decked cutter, custom built by the Elephant Boatyard in England for the guy I bought it from--named Katydid. She was beamy, had about a 50% ballast displacement ratio in a long fin keel, and a huge skeg-hung rudder. Very low windage due to the completely flush deck. On her delivery trip we made 85 nautical miles in the first 10 hours, with the knot meter routinely pegged at 10 as we surfed down waves in what I call a half-gale in Long Island Sound. No other boats out, and nobody in sight--too rough. When we rounded Pt. Judith it was blowing a solid 30-35, right on the nose, and we beat our way up to Newport under triple-reefed main and small staysail--again the only boat out. She relished heavy air, and we frequently passed much larger boats in those conditions. Crossed the Gulf Stream in northers maybe 10 times in her. One time we were blasting along close hauled across the Gulf Stream in a norther with reefs in and rough conditions when we kept getting buzzed by the Coast Guard in a helicopter. It turns out they were looking for the crew of a much bigger sailboat that had sunk just earlier.
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:04   #45
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Re: Boats that can Handle a Blow?

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I have wondered if a boat that can be designed to have a ballast tank that can be filled with water to make it heavier would be useful when it needs to sit out a big storm, even at anchor. I would think heavier would be better in this situation, not going anywhere so weight isn't a liability. Been thinking I might design such a thing into my boat.
How about a Mac Gregor?

Or just open a seacock..........
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