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Old 01-10-2015, 16:44   #91
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

One of the possible types of boats is a "racer/cruiser" or even a former "racer" boat that has been adapted to have a cruising interior.

Here is one that caught my eye today.
Why? Well, the name brand of the boat (Nelson/Marek) has some racing pedigree and cachet to anyone familiar with big boat racing or the America's Cup racing during the 1980s and 1990s. The Nelson/Marek boats were built in California, but found their way around the world as racing boats (most over 40 feet long). In short, they were top designers of fast boats. Ordinarily I would not recommend a former racing boat as a cruising boat, as many have been "rode hard and put away wet." But, occasionally one can find one that has been retired and updated with new sails or a new interior or made more livable as a cruising boat. In this case, this particular boat caught my attention and would be one I would consider because of the new diesel engine, new sails, and the excellent design.

Nelson/Marek 41
(1981)

Asking Price = $20,000
Location = San Diego

Some specs on this model of boat:
LOA = 41
Beam = 11.90'
Draft = 7.30'
Displ = 15,300 pounds
SA/Disp = 20.38
Masthead sloop
Fin with Spade Rudder
First built in 1980
Total sail area = 782.18 ft2

Source: SERENDIPITY 41 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The designers Nelson/Marek:
"Bruce Nelson, with his partner Bruce Marek, were the principles of a prolific San Diego California yacht design firm, Nelson Marek, formed in 1979. Nelson continues to operate Nelson Marek, while Marek is an independent designer on the East Coast. Most of their designs are for custom built yachts including world class racers, although they have designed some production models including the Catalina 42 and Merit 28."

They also designed Morgans, Catalinas, Schock, and several other branded boats.
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Noteworthy Features mentioned in the sale listing:
1981
recent haulout
new sails
new diesel with 200 hours
must sell due to relocation
_____________

Steady's Observations:
Self Tailing Winches (some 3 speed)
Harken Roller Furler
Adjustable Jib Sheet leads from cockpit, rigged for short handed sailing,
weather cloths around cockpit
Bimini
Dodger
BBQ
The video shows these features and some of the interior.
The sale listing:
41' Nelson/Marek

Video
The owner's video showing the engine running, deck, cockpit, topsides, and the boat sailing.
https://fatcarrotmedia.wistia.com/medias/tx11962ql9

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Caveat Emptor! Buyer Beware!
I have NO connection to the seller or owner of this boat. Posting a photo here or information about a boat does NOT constitute an endorsement of that boat or that brand or that seller of the boat. The buyer should still "beware."

The buyer should always ask: In what condition is it?

As with any purchase of any large boat, it is wise to have the boat surveyed by a professional Yacht Surveyor prior to purchase. If you are a newbie and don't have much experience with sailboats, this is especially important.
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Old 01-10-2015, 18:06   #92
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Looks like a beauty. Don't see any close to this in tn/ky areaa
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Old 01-10-2015, 18:49   #93
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Crisco41,

That Nelson-Marek is definitely an ocean capable boat. She doesn't really belong on a lake in TN. Or at least that's my opinion. Not terribly well informed, actually.

Ann
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Old 01-10-2015, 23:25   #94
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Crisco41,

That Nelson-Marek is definitely an ocean capable boat. She doesn't really belong on a lake in TN. Or at least that's my opinion. Not terribly well informed, actually.

Ann
Yeah beautiful but draft would never work anywhere around here
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Old 02-10-2015, 00:26   #95
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Steady, nice find, really. And I may see if a friend in San Diego will take a peek @ her for me. One who I used to play with every kind of boat you can name on. As he'll be as good (or better) at playing Devil's Advocate as me... Kind of like the below, abridged "Danger List".

She's definitely Real Pretty on the outside, but... Likely she's an HMU - High Maintenance Unit. I say this, having raced on about as many boats as I had Birthday's, Squared. And am an unabashed speed junkie. To the degree that it's making it tough for me to pick a "sensible" cruising boat, vs. an old racer like this.

Odds are 95% of her sails are of the lightest weight possible. Just some Kevlar, with thin Mylar sandwiching things - String Sails, as it were. Which have a Very short life, generally (one racing season), given that she's setup as a day racer (as are 98% of the racers in San Diego). BTW, such sails are fully custom, & are about as pricey as they come.

With a boat like this, you also have to be able to maintain some semi-exotic systems. Like the hydraulics, for example. She'll have a master (hydraulic) panel, with the ability to switch "channels" for the various controls to tune the rig, & shape the main, including: Backstay, Vang, Outhaul, & perhaps a few others.
It connects all of these controls together with hoses & thins, stainless steel tubing. And if you ever blow a hose or seal, the deck becomes a skating rink beyond belief. Thanks to the 3-5l of hydraulic fluid in the system, which is slipperier than any oil you've ever imagined. And runs at pressures up to 3k psi+.

The rigs on such boats are a BIG $ expense. As all (4) of the shrouds (per side) are rod, ditto on the headstay, & backstay. It's about 4x per foot/m the cost of rigging wire... and the catch is, you can't do any of the work on it yourself. Plus there's about 3x as much labor involved as there is when working with, or refitting with rigging wire.

Not to mention that the spreader bars commonly need replacement. Ditto on halyard exit boxes, halyard locks... And, BTW, this is an abridged list of what needs attention in a rig like that.
So, bottom line, to swap out everything so that you know she's safe to take offshore will run you $10k minimum, but more realistically, $15k+
I state this, as it's pretty uncommon for owners to replace rigging as often as they should (due to the price) in all but the highest end racing programs.

And then there are the expensive things, like her structure. She likely doesn't have enough in the way of keel floors to survive more than a moderate grounding. So if/when you bump something, it's time for a trip to the yard (like NOW), for major repairs... Assuming that the keel didn't punch a hole in that part of things which keeps the H2O out, AKA the hull.

Also, with bolt on keels in racers, it's not uncommon to have zero bilge. So any water which gets inside will creep up the hull sides with each tack. Even when you keep tabs on it with the Wet-Dry vac. As the masts have lots of holes in them for halyards & such, which also do a good job of funneling water down below. In addition to the "usual" means of boats getting water inside of them.

She surely is pretty, but lacks a LOT of the most basic cruising features. Such as bow cleats (see the video), probably real tankage in any quantity. And all of the other (basic) things which make cruising boats expensive.
Assuming, that is, that she was built stout enough to survive the racing thing, & that the hydraulic rigging hasn't broken her spine. Or a dozen other bad things I could name.

And the thing is, I LOVE fast boats (including Stars & Stripes in the background, she's an old mistress of mine too). Just hire a Good surveyor if you're going to look at something like this one, & also run the numbers on what you'll want to add to her, to make her comfy enough for cruising.
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Old 02-10-2015, 00:56   #96
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Nelson/Marek 41
(1981)
Asking Price = $20,000
Location = San Diego
Ha! That's my neighbor. I didn't realize they had her for sale - we're not allowed to hang a sign unless it's listed by one of the brokers in the marina.

She's not raced these days, but they get out for a few hours most weekends. I haven't been below, but she seems to be pretty well maintained on a day-to-day basis. Unless there's a surprise somewhere, I'd say she's a pretty good deal.

Gee, I sure could use a second boat . . .
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:18   #97
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

+1 on the HMU thing uncivilized, you have pretty much nailed it. My plan was always a ground up rebuild, so not such a big extra expense. But still not really a smart way to go. Unfortunately I've got hooked on the way these things sail, and it's going to be hard to derate her performance with a shallower keel or a stretchy wire rig...

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Old 02-10-2015, 02:41   #98
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
+1 on the HMU thing uncivilized, you have pretty much nailed it. My plan was always a ground up rebuild, so not such a big extra expense. But still not really a smart way to go. Unfortunately I've got hooked on the way these things sail, and it's going to be hard to derate her performance with a shallower keel or a stretchy wire rig...

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You can go with a "moderate" de-tuning, if the math works out okay. See about switching from Rod, to Compacted Strand (Dyform) wire. The catch(es) being, to make sure that the wire is closely matched strength wise to the rod it's replacing. As if it's a good percentage stronger, then you rishk putting too much compression load onto the mast tube. And then @ some point, a Gravity Storm may ensue.

Also, knock on wood, with an aluminum boat, if she's got some good structure to tie things into, belowdecks. Then you may be able to get away with moving (re-welding) the chainplates around a bit. Like say, all of the way outboard, & or aft a bit. Thus widening both your staying base, & lengthening you spreaders. So as to ratchet down the compression loading on you (mast) tube a bit... or significantly, depending on how narrow your staying base is now.
Although, of course, such will likely cost you in terms of sheeting angles, & how you carry big jibs. - But like Robert Heinlein always said, TANSTAAFL.

One other catch (of course). If you have discontionuous rod, then substituting shroud materials, can at times be tricky. As too can matching up Dyform with your spreader end fittings. Though Synthetic Rigging may also be an option, via Colligo Marine. Their stuff & systems seem pretty well thought out.
However, again, it's the shroud's end bits, & the spreader tips issues which make or break things.

As to shallower keels. If you find a good NA, he can pen you a bulb which'll lessen your draft, & not cost you anything in terms of being able to go to weather. For example Magic Keel
That, & MARS Metals is pretty good at working a bit of magic, when it comes to bobbing keels, without losing much, if any performance.


PS: There are some designs out there which run "old fashioned" rigs & materials, & in the grand scheme of things, don't give much, performance wise. At least when compared to something akin to a vessel of your era & type.
Now, the same can't be said when comparing such boats to more modern, performance vessels. AKA ones which weigh half of what yours does, WL for WL. Unless, you want to make the switch to a multihull. But that's another Universe entirely.
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:41   #99
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

To Uncivilized (and everyone else),

Thanks for adding your comments to the thread.

I like the way you mentioned some of the possible shortcomings or possible costs of a large "racer" boat that may be appealing, but may be costly to convert to a cruiser or to maintain as a cruiser.

As I look at many boats each day, I see boats for sale that represent a "type" of boat that new sailors may encounter as they search for their first cruising boat or first sailboat. I hope that by posting some examples of those types here, we can all discuss the pros/cons of that type of boat, including mentioning some of the possible reasons why it may or may not make a good first boat or a good cruising boat.

So I do encourage other CF Members who have experience with this type of boat or this model of boat to speak up about how they see it for use as a cruiser.

My hope is that by covering many different types of boats in this thread, the readers who don't have as much experience may see the range of boats that may be considered, along with the merits or possible pitfalls of that type. I hope this helps folks, especially those inexperience sailors or first-time boat buyers who frequently join the forum with the purpose of getting suggestions to answer their common question: "Which boat should I buy?"
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:23   #100
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Crisco41,

That Nelson-Marek is definitely an ocean capable boat. She doesn't really belong on a lake in TN. Or at least that's my opinion. Not terribly well informed, actually.

Ann
Or anywhere south of the bridge in San Diego bay with a 7' draft I ran aground with a three foot draft in my Potter.

I had an Ericson 32, nice boat, but I ran aground several times in Florida. So keep draft in mind when you make your decision. Deep draft great in a seaway, not so good near shore. and the obverse is also true shallow draft means you can go a lot more places in the Bahamas and near Florida and maybe even the Atolls of the South Pacific, but at Sea you'll be blown around quite a bit.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:23   #101
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Steady Hand I agree and appreciate your efforts. While I am not qualified to comment as I have never had a sailboat larger than a Catalina 22, I read the new postings almost immediately. I have my sights on cruising in the next few years so I am taking it all in.
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Old 02-10-2015, 10:30   #102
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

I am learning an awful lot. I so appreciate this being here. Thankyou!
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Old 02-10-2015, 20:46   #103
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

I think that this is a Great thread, & that, Steady, you're doing us all a GREAT Service with it. Both in terms of putting up links to some great finds on boats. And in letting it be a place where people can learn things about different boats.

Sometimes people learn about different boat types, their construction (pros & cons), various systems, etc. by reading about such in threads like this. And in various other places; online, in books, & periodicals, etc. As well as of course, hands on learning, & or in courses on the various subjects.

Then there are others who are courageous enough to ask, such as in this thread. 1996 Custom 49' Cat in New Smyrna Where, while I didn't get a chance to see the boat listing, prior to typing up my reply. I imagine that what I wrote will be a helpful, learning experience for those that read it. As I put in an abridged delineation of how to evaluate a cruising boat, & to compare it against other potential candidates.

Though as I mentioned to Steady, at times I feel like "The Heavy", when I use my experiences & knowledge in order to explain some of the realitiies of things: Concerning various boat types. Methods of construction. Onboard systems etc.

For instance, I explained, in greater depth, just one of the shortcomings of the Nelson Marek 41 (above) in this thread, for use as a cruiser. And I hope I'm not sharing information which is too overly private, Steady.
But on the N/M 41, I wrote a note to Steady, explaining/stating...:

"I hope I didn't come off to harshly in my comments on the NM 41, in your thread. It's just that the upkeep alone on a boat like that is loco.
It's easy to go through $20k a year in doing so. Let alone fitting her out for cruising. Which itself, often takes special prep.

For example, to put in a set of, or three, substantial bow cleats on her, will require some significant composites work, prior to bolting them on.
This is because her deck is a light weight, cored, composite sandwich, not at all designed for point loads like cleats. So in order to mount such things, you have to cut away the inner skin. Remove the core. Reinforce the outer skin, from inside/underneath. Add a solid, substantial core, & then put a new, much heavier skin on the inside.
After which you can add a heavy backing plate, & mount the cleats in the usual manner.

It's not rocket science, but unless you've done it a couple of times, it's definitely work that you have to think through. As well as doing a bit of math, & load path analysis.
So some background in boat repair & modification is kind of essential to convert something like this to cruise. As she's far less substantial than say one of the Ericson's which you posted on."

Thus, this thread is a great place to learn. And it's quite a service to those open minded enough to think through some of the issues in it, in depth.

Of course, the room to both debate & learn things, here, is one of the perks of the forum which I think keeps a lot of us coming back here.
It's something which I'm doing right now, on a different topic, in another thread, & it's definitely interesting.
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Old 02-10-2015, 23:49   #104
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Saw this listing tonight. Posting it here as it may help someone get started sailing. I have no connection to the boat or seller.

Free MacGregor 22 sailboat with trailer.

Location= Brooklyn NY

"
22 foot macgregor sailboat. Comes with everything needed to sail. Swing keel, roller furler.
Comes with trailer that was only used for two seasons. I have the paper work on trailer and boat. The trailer is fairly new and goes for around $1200.
I bought the boat off original owner. I haven't used it the last couple of seasons. Don't want to pay storage if I'm not using it. Boat and trailer are free. You have to take both. I also have a 15 hp yamaha 4 stroke engine for $1400 if you need a motor."

I will pay for the transfer from stands to trailer. It's in a boatyard. Also has working sails, new winch for raising and lowering keel. Needs some cosmetic work. Sails very nice."
free sailboat with newer trailer
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Old 03-10-2015, 00:00   #105
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Re: Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

Uncivilized,

Thanks! I am glad you posted that above. That kind of experienced view is what I hope other members will add to the discussion of the various boats in this thread. My hope is that it will help others identify good types or models of boats, while understanding the pros/cons of each. Because the thread is focused on boats that are currently on the market, we can see the typical condition and asking street price for them too.
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