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Old 25-02-2011, 16:17   #1
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Boat Suggestions Please

Hi everyone. I'm looking for suggestions for a cruising sailboat. We would be using the boat as a live aboard and would want it capable of safe passage making. Following are criteria we feel are ideal:

Budget of 150,000 to 250,000 (might be able to stretch some)
Available on market
Good sailing performance
Modern hull shape (not full keel)
Recognized and respected designer
Recognized and respected builder
Cutter or ketch rig
Moderate displacement
Owner's berth open at least on one side. Centerline queen preferred.
Standing headroom in owner's cabin.
Comfortable for 2. Doable for 4.
No teak decks
Recognized blue water cruising ability
Pretty lines. I know this is subjective, but in general I mean not boxy, not top heavy looking, traditional lines
50' Maximum Around 6' draft
Traditional looking interior (lots of wood)

What do you think experts? Thanks for ideas!

Jeff
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Old 25-02-2011, 16:32   #2
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Welcome to CF Jpernick!

That my new friend, is the age old argument, what is a passage making boat?

Personally, most 40+ foot boats currently in production are capible of water sailing">blue water sailing. I also know a few other sailors on here will argue only a full keel boat is blue water ready. It is my opinion that the newest Benes, Catalinas, Jennys and even the Hunters make good to great cruisers, with a knowledgable captain and crew. MarkJ just finished a circumnavigation in a Bene.

I like a boat that can sail closer to the wind and goes like a bat out of he##, so I get there quicker and avoid having to heave to every other day. But that is just my opinion.

In any case, there are several blue water boat threads on here you can look up using the search feature.

Keith
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Old 25-02-2011, 17:13   #3
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

With that for a budget you will have lots to choose from. You don't specify what experience you have but I would speculate, based on your questions, not too much. Keith in his post opts for speed, I opt for comfort. Hence I have a full keel and fairly heavy displacement. A heavier boat is a bit more comfortable in bad weather and there aren't too many sailboats that can outrun bad weather offshore. I do like the cutter rig but would have no problem with a ketch rig. There are tradeoffs there since a sloop rig would point higher and theoretically make for a faster passage. Since it appears that you will either be sailing single or shorthanded, be sure the equipment allows that. For example, do you need to leave the helm in order to be near the primary winches for tacking? Better have a good autopilot with a tacking feature. Same for mainsheet controls. Can you trim from the helm? Also, keep in mind the bigger the boat the more expensive to equip and maintain it.

Your 6 ft or less draft requirement will limit your choice somewhat but that is more of a requirement of where you plan on sailing. In my waters even my 5 ft draft can be an issue at times.

Actually a great number of your "requirements" are subjective. What is comfortable to me might not be comfortable to you. Wanting lots of teak is understandable, my boat has LOTS of teak, but do you want to dedicate the time and effort to maintain it? What do you consider "good sailing performance"? With all due respect, it seems you might need to give your wish list a bit more thought. What the hey, that's half the fun.

Good luck,
Rich
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Old 25-02-2011, 20:49   #4
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Thanks for the comments Rich. What I am really looking for are model recommendations that generally fit the criteria listed rather than a critique of the criteria. Maybe the most subjective criteria I listed would be "good sailing". By this I mean what is generally understood as a "performance cruiser" in the Perry sense. Any recommendations?
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Old 25-02-2011, 20:57   #5
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpernick View Post
Hi everyone. I'm looking for suggestions for a cruising sailboat. We would be using the boat as a live aboard and would want it capable of safe passage making. Following are criteria we feel are ideal:

Budget of 150,000 to 250,000 (might be able to stretch some)
Available on market
Good sailing performance
Modern hull shape (not full keel)
Recognized and respected designer
Recognized and respected builder
Cutter or ketch rig
Moderate displacement
Owner's berth open at least on one side. Centerline queen preferred.
Standing headroom in owner's cabin.
Comfortable for 2. Doable for 4.
No teak decks
Recognized blue water cruising ability
Pretty lines. I know this is subjective, but in general I mean not boxy, not top heavy looking, traditional lines
50' Maximum Around 6' draft
Traditional looking interior (lots of wood)

What do you think experts? Thanks for ideas!

Jeff
Sounds gettable but I'd suggest go kingsize rather than settling for a centreline queen
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Old 26-02-2011, 16:23   #6
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Jpernick,

Choosing a boat is a bit like choosing a wife. What I like you might hate. What you might do is pick up the Practical Sailor's two volume set on Practical Boat Buying. You will find a lot of boats reviewed. If I could afford a new boat I would be considering the Catalina/Morgan 44 DS but a $300K price tag is out of my league. Of the older boats you might consider the Morgan 41 OI. Personally I wouldn't want an out islander on a bet but the 41 has reputation as a pretty fair sailor and its definitely comfortable. As with any older boat, they come in all conditions. I guy I knew bought a pretty sad model for about $25K and then spent another $50K to basically rebuild the boat. New wiring, engine, interior, sails, etc. He's placed fairly well in the St. Pete / Isla Mujeres race a couple of times. Personally, I would also look at the classic model of the Morgan 46 or Pacific Seacraft in the 40+ ft range. Like I said there are many boats that would probably do just fine, these are just a few I would at least take a look at.

Rich
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Old 26-02-2011, 16:44   #7
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Boat Suggestions

Jpernick,

I am with Khagan1227 on this one. The newest Benes, Catalinas, Jennys, fit in your list.

If you had a higher budget or were interesed in a used boat then an Island Packet would fit the bill.

Mark
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Old 26-02-2011, 16:47   #8
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Norseman 447 would be my pick for you're criteria. Perry design. How about a Swan in the 40-45 range. Looked at both, went for more comfort. Arent most bereths open on one side?
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Old 26-02-2011, 16:51   #9
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpernick View Post
Hi everyone. I'm looking for suggestions for a cruising sailboat. We would be using the boat as a live aboard and would want it capable of safe passage making. Following are criteria we feel are ideal:

Budget of 150,000 to 250,000 (might be able to stretch some)
Available on market
Good sailing performance
Modern hull shape (not full keel)
Recognized and respected designer
Recognized and respected builder
Cutter or ketch rig
Moderate displacement
Owner's berth open at least on one side. Centerline queen preferred.
Standing headroom in owner's cabin.
Comfortable for 2. Doable for 4.
No teak decks
Recognized blue water cruising ability
Pretty lines. I know this is subjective, but in general I mean not boxy, not top heavy looking, traditional lines
50' Maximum Around 6' draft
Traditional looking interior (lots of wood)

What do you think experts? Thanks for ideas!

Jeff

Columbia 45, but I may be a bit biased here. Buy one is great shape, put all tehnew stuff on it and you have a great boat for less than 150 boat$
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Old 26-02-2011, 16:51   #10
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

How about a Norseman 447, Perry design, 2-3 cabins, fast. Or a Swan in the 40-45 range. Looked at both, ultimately went with more living comfort. And a better view on the bouy from the house. IMO
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Old 27-02-2011, 15:16   #11
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

The Norseman 447 is a great boat, but I doubt you would get one for 150-200K.

A few random thoughts to toss into the discussion.

1. Ketches are great, but most seem to have a "mast in the cockpit" problem and this can be really a pain after a while. I prefer Yawl's but very few made these days.

2. Its not a binary discussion. You don't need to have a racing sled, fin-keel, carbon fiber, bendy-masted, modern design vs a slow, heavy, teak-decked, taiwan-built cruising van. Many boats, like the Pacific Seacraft, have modified full keels and hull shapes which both sail well and handle rough weather well.

3. Given the market, I would opt for a used boat about 3-8 years old. If it was a production boat (Catalina, Hunter, etc.) I would go younger (3 years) and if it was a more custom, higher-end, boat I would be OK with something 5-8 years old (subject to survey proving it sound).

4. I don't agree about some of the production boats being just fine for blue water sailing and crossing oceans. Its a big difference when you jump from Ft. Lauderdale to the Bahamas vs crossing the North Atlantic or the Transpac Hawaii route from San Francisco. Just look at the ports on some of the boats. Can you see 50,000 lbs of water being thrown at them and them remaining watertight? Some of the solid bronze, well made ones, yes. The plastic ones, with little clips to keep them in place? No way. Same thing for keel stepped masts vs deck stepped masts. People will argue this, but in a storm which would you rather have?

My recommendations?

1. A Pacific Seacraft 37 (Crealock) - not that much room, but very traditional
2. An Island Packet 45 or a 420 - full keel but a very solid boat and sails well
3. Hylas 46 (probably 5-8 years old) - sails well and very liveable

Some others probably, but those come to mind first..

Rick
S/V "Black Diamond"
Hylas 49-057
Portsmouth, RI
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Old 27-02-2011, 15:18   #12
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpernick View Post
Hi everyone. I'm looking for suggestions for a cruising sailboat. We would be using the boat as a live aboard and would want it capable of safe passage making. Following are criteria we feel are ideal:

Budget of 150,000 to 250,000 (might be able to stretch some)
Available on market
Good sailing performance
Modern hull shape (not full keel)
Recognized and respected designer
Recognized and respected builder
Cutter or ketch rig
Moderate displacement
Owner's berth open at least on one side. Centerline queen preferred.
Standing headroom in owner's cabin.
Comfortable for 2. Doable for 4.
No teak decks
Recognized blue water cruising ability
Pretty lines. I know this is subjective, but in general I mean not boxy, not top heavy looking, traditional lines
50' Maximum Around 6' draft
Traditional looking interior (lots of wood)

What do you think experts? Thanks for ideas!

Jeff
So much fun looking
then you find it and the looking fun ends,Sailing enjoyment begins.
Jealous
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Old 27-02-2011, 17:15   #13
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Last I looked there were 3 Norseman 447 in that range here. We looked at one 3 years ago at $165000, but it sold fast and for less. I was somewhat intimidated by the big stick, snooze you loose. Anyway we spent 1/2 that for our turtle and less for our old waterfront house since then to boot. The economy has definitly taken it's toll.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:19   #14
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Hi Jpernick. Your list is commendable and you seem to be looking for all the 'right' things within a yacht. Certainly all the ones recommended are excellent choices and well within your price range however don't discount some of the older models.

We have a Kelly Peterson 44 and sailed from NZ to Fiji, New Caledonia and back to Australia. They sail extremely well and can cover some good miles. Two cabin layout with two heads, good galley for 'at sea' cooking and excellent head room throughout. Cutter rigged offers several options, safe and comfortable. Good storage and all the other little things you want and if you find a good specimen you will be delighted. As they are all now in the 30 year age bracket they aren't as expensive as some of the other suggestions however don't go past this wonderfully designed yacht. We love ours very much and would happily recommend them to anyone. Good luck with your search and remember - all yachts are a compromise in some way.
F and R
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Old 04-03-2011, 06:36   #15
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Re: Boat Suggestions Please

Thanks for your feedback everyone. It has helped me in my thinking.

Jeff
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