Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-10-2012, 11:40   #91
Registered User
 
Thames 4 Blood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Boat: Jeanneau 45DS
Posts: 172
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The Pardey's in one of their books discussed the Xmas '82 debacle in Cabo San Lucas where 29ish of 42ish anchored cruising boats wound up on the beach in an unseasonable gale. They noted, and others agreed, that boats over 37' had a lot harder time when there was only a couple aboard. The boats were just too big to handle effectivelyby a couple. They also noted that a number of folks downsized their replacement boats.
Would these be the same Pardeys who did not have an engine?

Out of the 29ish boats on the beach I wonder how many also didnt have an engine?
__________________

__________________
Thames 4 Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 11:42   #92
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

I can't see any clear relationship between the size and how easy or not a boat is to handle. Been on 30' boats that were hell to manage and on 60' ones that were easy for a single guy. It is all up to your skills, the boat's type/design/layout and the day.

On the same vane, you will easily find smaller and well laid-out boats and bigger boats with less living space. Age/design matters, not size.

But size does matters when you pay the marina bill. Very much so.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 12:55   #93
Registered User
 
Thames 4 Blood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Boat: Jeanneau 45DS
Posts: 172
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

"Size does matters when you pay the marina bill. Very much so"

That is probably the only indesputable fact here! However, that in itself is not a stopper for me.

I am sorry to say I feel a lot of the other input here reminds me of the Aesops fable about the fox with no tail...

The original Q was about handling a size yacht short handed. Not paying for it on a short budget.

Re reading the thread it feels a lot like justifying the yacht I can afford as perfect rather than genuine comment on yacht handling.

I am a big fan of modern production yachts doing what they do best. If that involves modern conveniences then so much the better. To suggest that having electric winches aboard may result in muscular atrophy to the extent you would loose the ability to man handle a winch is risible. To suggest that the existance of a bow thruster will result is such a loss of skill that in the event of its failure disaster is inevitable is equally rediculous.

If you like to think you are in some way a "hardcore" sailor because you have a 1982 full keel 32ft ketch with an ancient engine, rusty fuel tanks, non tailing winches and tiller steering thats fine but I dont buy it. And yes, a 42ft yacht of the same era with the same equipment would be a handful short handed.

I have no wish to cause offence and I apologise if this is taken as rude but I have to call it as I see it.
__________________
Thames 4 Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 12:57   #94
Registered User
 
Sabbatical II's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie
Boat: Bluewater 420 CC
Posts: 756
Images: 1
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I can't see any clear relationship between the size and how easy or not a boat is to handle. Been on 30' boats that were hell to manage and on 60' ones that were easy for a single guy. It is all up to your skills, the boat's type/design/layout and the day.

On the same vane, you will easily find smaller and well laid-out boats and bigger boats with less living space. Age/design matters, not size.

But size does matters when you pay the marina bill. Very much so.

b.
And maybe how much wind is trying to blow you away from the dock while your 50kg wife is trying to cleat off.
__________________
Greg
Sabbatical II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:00   #95
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Greg of Sabbatical II makes a good point... us older folks who don't have the strength and stamina of the 30-40 year olds tend to use judgement and don't allow ourselves to get trapped in tough situations, particularly when we are shorthanded. My wife and I cruised for many years aboard our boats that were both over 50 ft and rarely ran in to problems we weren't comfortable in handling. It just took some extra planning and reefing long before we felt we had to. The extra length allowed us a greater cruising range without stopping for stores, more comfort in a seaway and we found them to be safer or at least gave us a feeling of greater security than smaller boats.
Ben and Teresa aboard June 8 were trapped in Cabo during that big blow and they had a small youngster aboard but managed to keep their Endurance 35 off the beach with just the 2 of them. He did break his leg and had it set by a physician on another boat in the middle of the Sea of Cortez. They recuperated at our shoreside home in Marin following the debacle. Ben mentioned that there were many experienced sailors caught out in that blow and even the most experienced of all, Mottisier, lost their boat that day.
The economic costs of a larger vessel are greater, maintenance is higher and the beefier gear is much more expensive but when we balanced out the comfort and amenities, we've never regretted going big. Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:12   #96
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbatical II View Post
And maybe how much wind is trying to blow you away from the dock while your 50kg wife is trying to cleat off.
I think mine is the only 50kg around. Most wives today (as well as husbands) come way, way better equipped to moor a heavy boat. Unfortunately, pure mass, high as it might be, counts little with boats over say 35'.

BTW I think skinny people tend to be quicker and stronger than overweight ones. So, for me, PLS, a pair of 50kg wives/husbands for all and any of my iffy docking sins.

Definitely there is the wx and a bad day factor too.

Beware: toys (e.g. bowthrusters, twin helms and 'decksalons' (buhahaha!)) become tools only in skilled hands. Otherwise they remain toys and tend to do more harm than good.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:24   #97
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

The suggestion was made by Jeremiason that
"Things like a bow thruster might make that boat (that the OP might choose) a little bigger, since you have more control."

It seemed to me that allowing a technology to influence a purchase decision would imply a certain degree of reliance on that technology working. Otherwise you would not factor it in to such an important decision.

So I responded:

"I don't think many people maintain for long the high levels of skill necessary to, say, extricate a big vessel from a tight situation using old-school methods, when they've enjoyed the luxury of a thruster for a while.

What's more, without a thruster, they wouldn't have been inclined to put themselves into a situation which only a thruster will get them out of."

The OP, having issued the invitation "any thoughts", responded as follows:

"To suggest that the existance of a bow thruster will result is such a loss of skill that in the event of its failure disaster is inevitable is .... rediculous."


Setting aside the degree of misrepresentation which is puzzling, the emotive nature of the response suggests that what the OP was looking for was not "any thoughts" but rather "particular thoughts".

I'm sorry I misunderstood what was being asked for. I won't trouble the OP with any more thoughts.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:39   #98
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

if we throw enough "ifs" around the answer to how big a boat is too big becomes between 0-6" in the bath tub

since there are lots of couples out cruising on boats of 60'+ you can not really say those are too big

the only time my boat seems big is when bringing it to the dock, but there back when I was sailing 32' boats those seemed just as big doing the same

if I had an unlimited budget the boat handling wouldn't be the deciding factor of the size
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:44   #99
Registered User
 
Thames 4 Blood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Boat: Jeanneau 45DS
Posts: 172
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Andrew
Im very sorry, I deliberately did not single out or quote any particular post but I was instead referring to a feeling I got overall. If it sounded like I paraphrased your comment on bow thrusters I did not intend to. In defence of my argument rather than my sloppy representation of it, I feel a bow thruster is a tool and can be an important safety feature if used correctly. Its existence does not neccesarily imply total reliance on it.

Yes, my views differ from yours on this but I do see your point and again, I sincerely apologise if you felt attacked or criticised.

Kindest Regards
Mark.
__________________
Thames 4 Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 13:54   #100
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,595
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
Would these be the same Pardeys who did not have an engine?
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
Out of the 29ish boats on the beach I wonder how many also didnt have an engine?
None, they were all production boats or highend custom jobs.

The Pardey's were asked to investigate immediately following the event by one of the major national sailing rags because of the high level of experience, apparently good judgement and because they were known writers that could produce a good article.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 14:01   #101
Registered User
 
Thames 4 Blood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Boat: Jeanneau 45DS
Posts: 172
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

I dont know the story here but to what was that ascribed? Was there a reason suggested why a two handed boat without an engine could claw off a lee shore where other boats foundered? I suspect your answer will be "size" but I find this a little too simplistic if it is?
__________________
Thames 4 Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 14:09   #102
Registered User
 
oldragbaggers's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wherever the boat is
Boat: Cape Dory 33
Posts: 1,019
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

It seems that a lot of times these threads, both on this board and others I frequent, rather than having replies that are a direct answer to a simple question asked, will quickly deteriorate into a defense of one type of thing vs, another type of thing. Us vs. them, small vs. large, modern vs. traditional, power vs. sail, whatever. The OP asked what size boat would be too big to manage. But within a page or two it had turned into a big vs. small.

The earth is 70% water. There is plenty of room out there for all of us. All kinds of folks on all kinds of vessels doing different kinds of cruising and engaging in all manner of different activities and pursuits are out there traveling and enjoying their lives. I hope no one ever tells them that the boat they happen to be on isn't suitable for the task. Ignorance can be bliss sometimes.

All the years we have spent sailing and enjoying our 3 (small) Cape Dories and Bristol 24' (all full keel traditional) and absolutely loving every minute of it, I had no idea I was on the worst possible types of boats for cruising. It certainly didn't feel that way to me. What the hell was I thinking!! I wish I still didn't kinow. Sort of knocked the wind out of my sails. (Pun intended.)

Sometimes the tone of these threads can compel people to try and "justify" their choice of type or size of boat. As if, if they can't convince you of the logic or validity of their choice they are somehow "out of the club." Is that really necessary?? Can't we all just get along....???
__________________
Southbound on the ICW

https://share.delorme.com/SVAnteris
oldragbaggers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 14:10   #103
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
I dont know the story here but to what was that ascribed? Was there a reason suggested why a two handed boat without an engine could claw off a lee shore where other boats foundered? I suspect your answer will be "size" but I find this a little too simplistic if it is?
The Pardeys have always pushed one ability in a sailing craft above all others-the ability to sail off a lee shore when embayed in high winds. This is why they have cutter rigs on their engineless cruisers. Their philosophy is that a small boat has much less sail area to handle, yet can still point to weather in high winds. Actually doing this has as much to do with experience as design, and those who rely on an engine to get out of such situations don't gain the necessary experience, in theory. Personally I believe an experienced sailor who's put some thought into it can certainly run a big powerful engine and have the best of both worlds. Perhaps Lynn, who is a member here, will chime in if we are lucky...
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 14:13   #104
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
It seems that a lot of times these threads, both on this board and others I frequent, rather than having replies that are a direct answer to a simple question asked, will quickly deteriorate into a defense of one type of thing vs, another type of thing. Us vs. them, small vs. large, modern vs. traditional, power vs. sail, whatever. The OP asked what size boat would be too big to manage. But within a page or two it had turned into a big vs. small.

The earth is 70% water. There is plenty of room out there for all of us. All kinds of folks on all kinds of vessels doing different kinds of cruising and engaging in all manner of different activities and pursuits are out there traveling and enjoying their lives. I hope no one ever tells them that the boat they happen to be on isn't suitable for the task. Ignorance can be bliss sometimes.

All the years we have spent sailing and enjoying our 3 (small) Cape Dories and Bristol 24' (all full keel traditional) and absolutely loving every minute of it, I had no idea I was on the worst possible types of boats for cruising. It certainly didn't feel that way to me. What the hell was I thinking!! I wish I still didn't kinow. Sort of knocked the wind out of my sails. (Pun intended.)

Sometimes the tone of these threads can compel people to try and "justify" their choice of type or size of boat. As if, if they can't convince you of the logic or validity of their choice they are somehow "out of the club." Is that really necessary?? Can't we all just get along....???

Human nature. Unfortunately, no, we can't all just get along.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2012, 14:17   #105
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,595
Re: Boat Size - How big is too big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
The suggestion was made by Jeremiason that
"Things like a bow thruster might make that boat (that the OP might choose) a little bigger, since you have more control."

It seemed to me that allowing a technology to influence a purchase decision would imply a certain degree of reliance on that technology working. Otherwise you would not factor it in to such an important decision.

So I responded:

"I don't think many people maintain for long the high levels of skill necessary to, say, extricate a big vessel from a tight situation using old-school methods, when they've enjoyed the luxury of a thruster for a while.

What's more, without a thruster, they wouldn't have been inclined to put themselves into a situation which only a thruster will get them out of."

The OP, having issued the invitation "any thoughts", responded as follows:

"To suggest that the existance of a bow thruster will result is such a loss of skill that in the event of its failure disaster is inevitable is .... rediculous."


Setting aside the degree of misrepresentation which is puzzling, the emotive nature of the response suggests that what the OP was looking for was not "any thoughts" but rather "particular thoughts".

I'm sorry I misunderstood what was being asked for. I won't trouble the OP with any more thoughts.
Don't be sorry about the misunderstanding, it wasn't apparent for the first several pages that he was looking for reassurance about a decision he had qualms about but seems to have already made even if he wasn't aware of having made it.
__________________

__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
size

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.