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Old 08-11-2011, 06:13   #1
smo
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Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

I'm about to retire in another 3 years
I live by lake michigan
nearby is a 6 foot deep pond where you can moor a sailboat for free'
there's a 3 foot shoal to get inside
looking for suggestions of late 70's or 80's 20-26 foot boats with shoal keels or lifting keels for daysailing and some nice weather cruising around the great lakes

i'd like to pick up something used over the next season and spruce it up for more heavy use after retirement

i'd appreciate your suggestions

smo
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:18   #2
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Is the shoal a solid 3' or is it 3'+?
What's the budget?
Do you need a real cabin, or would a cuddy or dinghy be acceptable.

COM-PAC 23
COM-PAC 23 MK 2
COM-PAC 25
HOLDER 17 - cuddy
Vagabond 17 - Same as Holder 17, different builder
HOLDER 20 drop keel, cuddy, good performance
CAL 20 - fixed 3'4" draft, good performance, many available
CATALINA 22 - Real cabin, many available, manufacturer still in business.
COM-PAC 19
SANTANA 20 - fixed 4' draft
TEMPEST -Dinghy, high performance, fixed 3'7" draft
FLYING SCOT - Dinghy


HOBIE 33 - Real cabin, real budget ($20k), real high performance, drop keel bolts in place

The compac's have fixed keels and real cabins starting at about 23', but are really light on sail area. If your sailing area is a light or even moderate wind area you will wind up motoring a lot.

A drop keel is like a dagger board, it pull straight up into the boat rather than swinging. Usually it bolts into place to make it more like a fixed keel.

I would reccommend the Holder/Vagabond 17 if the winds at your location don't tend to be very light and that size cuddy is OK.

If the winds tend to be light, then the Holder 20, which has significantly more sail by compensation.

If you want a real cabin then the Catalina 22.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:35   #3
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Personally, If I was going to be doing some cruising, I'd want something with at least close to standing headroom. The Compact 25 and Catalina swing keel 25 are a couple in that age range I'd consider.

If you want to go a bit smaller,there certainly are a lot of Catalina 22s to be found at very reasonable prices.

I you are willing to go a bit newer and a bit more money, I'd consider the Water ballast Catalina 25 and Hunter 26.

I owned one of the older Telstar 26 trimarans for a while - Standing headroom, solidly built and a 2-foot draft with the boards up. It's certainly a boat I'd consider for what you describe. There's not a lot of them around however.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:41   #4
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

the holder 20 and the hobie 33 are dream boats of mine.
I don't think either are very well set up for easy adjustment of the drop keels. i just read an article about a i-550 sportboat meade gougeon modified to be a drop keel rather than just a keel boat. gougeon (of west system epoxies fame) built a jack like device that made raising the dagger keel easier.I wonder if a bow pulpit like device just incircling the dagger slot opening could have a winch attached for easier raising or lowering. Maybe even some type of electrical winch ala like you see on those wild 4wd offroad trucks.

I think if i was retired and had the hobie 33 that i'd head out one day and never come back... at least that is until the great lakes area started turning to winter. Then I'd put her on her trailer and head far enough south until i no longer needed socks and relaunce never to be seen again

thanks for your suggstions

smo

ps loved yur sailing wagon though i'd go with fully battened flat top main and a asymetrical spinaker on a long articulating bowsprit
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:03   #5
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

I think you might also look into some traditional cat boats, such as a marshall.

Here are some examples for sale:

CBA: Cats4Sale FALL 2011 Bulletin No.156
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:07   #6
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by smo View Post
the holder 20 and the hobie 33 are dream boats of mine.
I don't think either are very well set up for easy adjustment of the drop keels. i just read an article about a i-550 sportboat meade gougeon modified to be a drop keel rather than just a keel boat. gougeon (of west system epoxies fame) built a jack like device that made raising the dagger keel easier.I wonder if a bow pulpit like device just incircling the dagger slot opening could have a winch attached for easier raising or lowering. Maybe even some type of electrical winch ala like you see on those wild 4wd offroad trucks.

I think if i was retired and had the hobie 33 that i'd head out one day and never come back... at least that is until the great lakes area started turning to winter. Then I'd put her on her trailer and head far enough south until i no longer needed socks and relaunce never to be seen again

thanks for your suggstions

smo

ps loved yur sailing wagon though i'd go with fully battened flat top main and a asymetrical spinaker on a long articulating bowsprit
I got the impression that the Holder 20 drop is a lot like a dagger and goes up and down on a block and tackle and doesn't bolt down so it is quick and easy. I haven't actually been on one so I don't know for sure.
Have you been aboard a Holder 20 to see how it works?

My feeling is the Holder is probably one of the better starter boats there are.

What are your sailing intentions? What is the weather there like.

The Dread Pirateship Radioflyer was a Halloween carrier for the munchkins 2yr ago. The neighbors still mention it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:05   #7
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

If the dagger keel lifts fairly easily this might be the boat for me.
I'm 6-7 inches tall and 230 lbs so standing headroom one of the other folks mentioned is isn;t something i'm that used to anyways.

I love the idea of thinking of the holder20 as a backpacking style/cruising boat wher instead of luxury ammenities, you look at backpacking stove for cooking ala the mini transat boats and duffles and soft cooler for gears and foodstuffs. and stop at ports with neat little barsserving good barburgers. when i'm away from these backpacking food would suffice.
the holder would make s nice fast daysailer too.

our weasther on lake mich is light most of the time with heavy breezes in the spring and fall. I'd take the main off to a sailmaker for a couple rows of reef points. in heavy winds i'd try to go with a reefed main alone
and in light ait a full main and east tacking blade jib for singlehanding.

i'd also look at a cooler i could jam in the windward 1.4 berth for a little moveable ballast for a long tack like when crossing the big lake.

thanks

smo
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:25   #8
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Precison 23, Oday 25, Catalina 25. Hunter 26/260 is roomy but you have to climb over the cabin top to go foward and lifelines are whimpy, awkward at best with no side deck around the cabintop, looks bloated. It does have a mostly open rear transom which gives good access to the boarding ladder, rudder and outboard.
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:56   #9
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by smo View Post
If the dagger keel lifts fairly easily this might be the boat for me.
I'm 6-7 inches tall and 230 lbs so standing headroom one of the other folks mentioned is isn;t something i'm that used to anyways.

I love the idea of thinking of the holder20 as a backpacking style/cruising boat wher instead of luxury ammenities, you look at backpacking stove for cooking ala the mini transat boats and duffles and soft cooler for gears and foodstuffs. and stop at ports with neat little barsserving good barburgers. when i'm away from these backpacking food would suffice.
the holder would make s nice fast daysailer too.

our weasther on lake mich is light most of the time with heavy breezes in the spring and fall. I'd take the main off to a sailmaker for a couple rows of reef points. in heavy winds i'd try to go with a reefed main alone
and in light ait a full main and east tacking blade jib for singlehanding.

i'd also look at a cooler i could jam in the windward 1.4 berth for a little moveable ballast for a long tack like when crossing the big lake.

thanks

smo
At the bottom of the Holder20 link there is an old email address for the class association that may still be good. See what they have to say about the drop keel operation. Alternatively the boat was a Hobie product for about half of its production run and they may be able to tell you about it.

For heavy air I would get 2 reefs in the main and lead the halyard and reef lines to the cockpit. Sailing without a jib may cause problems with helm balance I would either get an autopilot so you can tend the jib and do other things like navigate or get a small jib and make it self-tacking. There are about 3 ways to do it, all of which have drawbacks, but in heavy air, you probably will be happy just to have a jib drawing to balance the helm some and will care less about whether the shape is perfect. If you get that far we can discuss the options.

An alternative to an autopilot is to build a windvane self-steering system.
Here are a couple of links:
Model 20-20B
Walt Murray's website | Mister Vee wind vane self steering

If you want selfsteering with minimal expense then you will need to try sheet to tiller systems.:
Foolish Muse Single-handing Tip guide and sheet to tiller steering.
Foolish Muse Sheet-to-Tiller steering Video
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Old 08-11-2011, 14:03   #10
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by nautical62 View Post
Personally, If I was going to be doing some cruising, I'd want something with at least close to standing headroom. The Compact 25 and Catalina swing keel 25 are a couple in that age range I'd consider.

If you want to go a bit smaller,there certainly are a lot of Catalina 22s to be found at very reasonable prices.

I you are willing to go a bit newer and a bit more money, I'd consider the Water ballast Catalina 25 and Hunter 26.

I owned one of the older Telstar 26 trimarans for a while - Standing headroom, solidly built and a 2-foot draft with the boards up. It's certainly a boat I'd consider for what you describe. There's not a lot of them around however.

I absolutely agree with the suggestion for standing headroom. I could be mistaken but it seems to me that you could do some nice long cruises hopscotching around Lake Michigan, but you're going to get tired of not being able to stand up straight in the cabin, especially if it rains for a couple of days.

Also, unless you get a boat with a refrigerator (draws a lot of power; might want to pass on that), get one with an ice box that can be well insulated. If there's room to add extra insulation, you can put dry ice in the bottom, put a styrofoam "shelf" over the dry ice, then a block of ice, and keep food cold for up to a week.

I would also suggest that you look at something that is trailerable. Put that boat on a trailer and you can drive to all sorts of new places to explore. You'll have to have a vehicle that can pull the boat without strain, but maybe you'll need a new vehicle within the next three years, so it's something to think about. You can drag that boat to somewhere in four hours it might take you three days to sail to.

If you get a trailerable boat, have someone who is truly expert with trailering a sailboat check out the trailer, make sure the tongue is long enough, that the trailer actually fits the boat, and that the mast is rigged to make raising and lowering the mast easy, dependable and safe. I watched someone struggle for 4 hours (with good help) to get her mast up. It can really put a dent in your sailing!
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Old 08-11-2011, 14:16   #11
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Re: Boat Model Suggestion - Shoal Draft Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I absolutely agree with the suggestion for standing headroom. I could be mistaken but it seems to me that you could do some nice long cruises hopscotching around Lake Michigan, but you're going to get tired of not being able to stand up straight in the cabin, especially if it rains for a couple of days.

Also, unless you get a boat with a refrigerator (draws a lot of power; might want to pass on that), get one with an ice box that can be well insulated. If there's room to add extra insulation, you can put dry ice in the bottom, put a styrofoam "shelf" over the dry ice, then a block of ice, and keep food cold for up to a week.

I would also suggest that you look at something that is trailerable. Put that boat on a trailer and you can drive to all sorts of new places to explore. You'll have to have a vehicle that can pull the boat without strain, but maybe you'll need a new vehicle within the next three years, so it's something to think about. You can drag that boat to somewhere in four hours it might take you three days to sail to.

If you get a trailerable boat, have someone who is truly expert with trailering a sailboat check out the trailer, make sure the tongue is long enough, that the trailer actually fits the boat, and that the mast is rigged to make raising and lowering the mast easy, dependable and safe. I watched someone struggle for 4 hours (with good help) to get her mast up. It can really put a dent in your sailing!
He has 2 dimesions that are pretty much mutually exclusive:
3' draft limit
6'7" headroom.

I don't know of any boat under $100k that will get him both dimensions. Since the draft restriction is related to a free moorage opportunity he has I think the $100k, or $50 even is probably out.

Fortunately for him he seems more interested in decent boat performance then on-board amenities. He will likely have to make do with a boom tent during rainy periods at anchor.
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