Boat choices.

[sailorjim]

I have a Morgan 323 and it is great. I added an Alder Barbour Super Cold Machine, 4 six volt Trojam T-105's as house bank, a 125 amp al, regulator, Heart Link 10, additional 37 gals water, radar, gps, ssb, vhf, new sails, dodger, cockpit cushions.

She is a great stiff boat, takes seas well and can be single handed with ease. She is also comfortable for 2 couples for a while.

What amazes me is that there are so few of these great, well built boats. The prices seem to be in the 27 to 40K/$ range. I would definately look into them.

I crusie ME to Fl and am contemplating the Carribean next year.

Jim

[chance]

I am an owner of a westsail32. Recently, I completed a 10k sail from the Bay area to New Orleans. After experiencing the first hand how the westsail behaves, I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone. It is not a slow boat, contrary to a popular belief. I averaged 120 miles per 24 hours, with 175 miles being the highest and 70 the lowest. It is a safe, sea kindly, comfortable ocean cruiser. And she looks good too. What else can you ask for? Feel free to contact me if you have other questions.

Chance
W32

[sneuman]

maui,

i'd seriously consider looking for the boat in the tropics. Here in HK, the price of boats has crashed. I wouldn't want to say what I paid for the 28ft sloop I bought in Dec., but suffice to say that you won't find a cruiser here in the 25-35ft range going for more than about US$12,000, the market simply won't support it right now. You might call the Royal Hong Kong Yacht club and/or Hebe Haven Yacht Club here to get a fell for what's on the market now (last I checked, plenty). A lot of expats are leaving HK because of the economy/SARS and they're having to leave their pride and joy behind.

[GordMay]

Here's a couple of articles, which includes a "Fuzzy Logic" program you can adapt to analyzing different boats, according to the Author's criteria or your own.
I cannot find my link to his 'ON-LINE' calculator - anyone know it's URL?

http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/lowcost.htm

http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/best.htm
Best Cruisersow Cost Cruising Boatsord

And these on-line calculators:

http://www.sailingusa.info/motion_comfort.htm
Motion Comfort Ratio

Gord

[maui]

Thanks for all of the help. The suggestions, makes, models, and web addrs. have been great. This is the hardest thing to do. Right now my wife/I are convinced that a W32 is THE vessel for us. It is heavy-duty, has great lines, built fot two, safe, not fast, good reputation(depending on who you talk to)and is in our price range. The engine looks like it has good access; good maint. practices. Any comments welcome.
Dave

[GordMay]

Here's the (excellent) site I was looking for:

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Sail Calculator Pro v2.72

[Jeff H]

I wanted to touch on John Drake's point and provide a counter point here, I have virtually known John Drake for a while now and very much respect his position but it is important to this discussion to understand that he has a personal prejudice against cored hulls and is expressing his deeply felt belief but this is far from being a universally held opinion. In fact current test data is suggesting that a properly constructed cored hull is more likely to withstand impact loads without damage and have greater durability than an uncored hull. Pound for pound cored hulls are stronger and stiffer than a non-cored hull. Non-cored hulls tend to have a very large proportion of mat which is turning out to be a serious liability to the durability, fatigue resistance and puncture resistance of the hull. While it is important to survey a cored (or uncored hull for that matter) carefully for delamination,delamination within the hull itself is actually pretty rare in a cored hull. Most core problems occur in the deck and cored decks have been nearly universal on boats with and without cored hulls since the 1960's.

Building a cored hull is a more expensive process than building an uncored hull, so that cored hull boats were generally built by better quality boat constructors. Eliminating cored hulls eliminates many of the better boat builders that are out there and begins to limit the number of choices to the higher production companies such as Beneteau, Hunter or Catalina or to lower performance end of the cruising type spectrum.

You have not mentioned where you will be using this boat, and I am a strong believer in buying a boat that suited to your sailing venue. You lists and the above recommendations are scattered all over the spectrum of options and quite a few of these boats are highly specialized types of boats that are best suited to one specific type of narrowly defined sailing venue and poorly suited most to others. I think that it would be helpful if you provided more detail about where you planned to sail this boat (more than simply 'the tropics'), how many people are involved, your sailing ability, and your long term goals for the boat. If your plans are uncertain then my best recommendation is to stick with well rounded designs that can do a lot of things well, even if they are not the best at any one thing.

In this size and price range my first recommendation is the Tartan 34. These are probably offer the most 'do anything' flexibilty of any boat I can think of in this size and price range. But there are lots of good boats in your size and price range. For example, at the performance end of the spectrum, Delhler (not the DB series), Xboats (not the 3/4 tonner)and boats like the Farr 1020 offer nice accomodations, good build quality and well rounded sailing characteristics. At the more traditional end of things are boats like the Pearson Vanguard, Rhodes Swiftshore, Allied Seabreeze, Luders 33 and C&C Corvette. Then there is a wide range of very good boats in between.

As I believe that I have suggested to you before, on another Bulletin Board, it would sure helpful to have more info about your plans in order to be able make more reasonable and focused recommendations.
Respectfully,
Jeff

[judgeharper]

Two great sources for boat comparison are Practical Sailor's two volume set, "Practical Boat Buying" and www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html. The latter will let you compare any two boats in several ways including capsize ratios and seakindless. It helped me narrow my choice between a Luders 33 and an Endeavour 32 for my single-hand around the world planned to begin next January. Good luck!

[Jeff H]

And now for the really bad news:
The so-called Motion Comfort Index and Capsize Ratio that is widely published contains none of the factors that actually provide a clue as to the relative stability or motion comfort of a boat. For example, neither formula contains a bit of information that can meaningfully be used to predict a thing about the behaivor of two boats. For example he Capsize ratio does not include such key components in determining the likelihood of a capsize and the Comfort index does not include such critical data controling motion as the vertical center of gravity and buoyancy(or even ballast and draft), weight and bouyancy distribution, roll and pitch axis or waterline beam. Both are surrogate formulas developed at a time when boats were a lot more similar than they are today. They provide dangerously inaccurate information if relied on for deciding between two boats.

The example that usually give in a discussion of these two formulas is as follows:

If you had two identical boats except that one had a 1000 lb weight mounted at the top of the mast (and yes I know that no one would hang a 1000 lb weight at the top of the mast but they would have a several hundred pound heavier mast and rig or teak decks.) The boat with the 1000 lbs up its mast would appear to be more stable under the Capsize ratio and have a more comfortable motion under the Motion Comfort Index, in fact the raised VCG would make it more prone to capsize and also would make it roll and pitch through substanially wider angels.

The only useful information on the www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html. site is the ability to get a quick calc of the SA/D and D/L of a particular boat. Carl's site provides a very useful service but without understanding the formulas and what they mean, the information can be very misleading.

With all due repect, although neither choice (Luders 33 or Endeavour 32) are particularly well suited to the kind of offshore passages that a round the world single-handed cruise implies, I sure hope that you chose the Luders 33 because the Endeavour 32's were lighter ballasted, centerboard removed, poorer built versions of the Irwin 32 and no one would every suggest that sailing an Irwin 32 around the world single-handed is remotely a good idea. Good luck to you.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[judgeharper]

Thanks Jeff.

However, a comparison has to start somewhere. The real test is to sail the possible choices yourself. A good agent can often arraign this. Also there are sites where owners give their individual opinions. Practical Sailor interviewed many owners for their opinions in their "Practical Boat Buying". I tend to reject anyone's opinion who has no personal experience with the boat in question. One of the things about our great country that often baffles foreigners is that even the prejudiced have the right to offer their two cents!

[Jeff H]

I agree with you about people who comment on boats that they have no experience with. I try to limit my strongest held opinions to boats that I know personally. That is the reason that I commented on the two boats in question. In the case of the Endeavour 32 my family owned two Endeavours from the period in that the Endeavour 32's were build and both had dismal build quality. I had some experience sailing and racing the Irwin 32 which is the source of the molds for the Endeavour 32 and so had some sense of the sailing ability of these boats. Of course Endeavour removed the centerboard and went to a lower density lighter weight ballast which is why I said that no one who knew these boats would ever think that sailing an Endeavour 32 around the world single-handed is remotely a good idea.

The Luder 33's, I know from racing aboard these as comparatively new boats (and dealing with a storm in one) and from participating in the restoration of one in the early 1980's. These would fall pretty low on my choice of boats to single-hand around the world but there are certainly better boats than the Endeavour.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[CSY Man]

In that price/lenght/age range I can recommend the CSY 33.

Good sturdy and well built boat.
Yup, they may be a bit slow in light winds, just like any other heavy boat with a short waterline.

The CSY 33 is the "biggest" 33 foot sailboat on the market:
The most storage, tankage, etc.....

Have owned one for almost 5 years, sailed it from Florida to the Bahamas 15 times, and put over 6000 miles on the thing.
Very happy with the ship: Go fast when the wind pipes up over 18 knots, go slow, but in style and comfort in light winds.

Also much higher build quality than a Morgan or an Irwing or some other cheap production boat...

[nads]

Hi Maui,

I'm Ed. Sounds like we are in the same situation. I'm just beginning my search, am am intent on a live aboard that I can outfit over the course of teh next year, before setting out on an extended cruise. Like anyone I would like to find a great deal on a great boat, but most of all I am looking for a solid sailor, with comfortable accomodations. Seaworthiness is a big concern, as well as ease of handling for a solo. I've just joined the forum and would like to hear what you find as well as share what I come across.

Good luck, talk with you.

[timdunn]

Hi, All

I first owned an Ericson 35, a typical racer-cruiser with a fin keel, and spade rudder. I sailed it from Newport to Honolulu, Honolulu to Seattle, and Seattle to Newport (in Southern California.)

Don't buy an Ericson 35. My next boat was semi-custom. It was Batwing, a moderatly long keel boat with a junk schooner rig designed by Blondie Hasler. It also had a nice big doghouse and inside steering. What a great boat.

You can see Batwing at: http://www.geocities.com/batwingsy/
It is still going strong, with almost all the gear original, except for new sails and a new engine.

I sailed it from Seattle to the Marquesas, the Society Islands, both Samoas, Tonga, New Zealand, Fiji, Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Carolines, Papua New Guinea, Palau, the Philipines, and Hong Kong. I shipped it home rather than sail it home due to a death in the family, and sold it a couple of years later.

In the interim I owned a San Juan 21, a Catalina 42, and a Catalina 27. I would'nt use any of the boats for ocean voyaging.

My next boat will be a great big Batwing, tenatively named Batwing II. I might mention that there have been improvements made in the junk rig in the last few years. It is now a weatherly rig, if you give it camber by installing hinges or rounds in the sail panels. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/

Thirty thousand sea miles, and I still prefer the junk rig. I can't wait to try a junk rig with camber.

[timdunn]

I was going to attach a drawing, but it is too big. My next boat has a pilot house, inside steering, a cambered junk schooner rig, a longish fin keel and a rudder mounted to a big skeg.