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Old 08-09-2008, 20:48   #31
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[quote=Ex-Calif;203329
Hud is right. We don't have a definition of intended use so we cannot answer wanabees question...[/quote]

Frankly that conclusion strikes me as evasive. I think the word "seaworthy" implies an intended use: to be capable of sailing the sea in relative safety in all weathers.
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:18   #32
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

Yet Acoustic (who is a delivery skipper) states "I will no longer set off in certain production boats with long range, two or three days + of, wind predictions over 25-30."
Sorry I should have qualified that.

1) I am not a delivery skipper but I have done about 40-60 deliveries in my life and have been paid for many of them. If that makes me a dlivery skipper so be it but I do have a real job, actually two...

I now only do deliveries in my vacation time and for friends or word of mouth. Most were done in college where I could blow off classes for a week or two and still pass...

2) It's not because I think the boats will sink or break apart it's because I don't like dealing with the owners when I get there.

When every door no longer closes, there are gaps where there were not and think somehow it's my fault and then try to screw me out of my delivery fee that's why I don't deliver some production boats.

Again, point me to even one or two catastrophic failures of a production boat where it broke apart and sunk and where it was definitely the fault of the vessel and not the crew being idiots....

In Fastnet some of the smallest and most lighlty built boats in the fleet survived while many of the "ocean going" yachts and racers did not..

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I think the word "seaworthy" implies an intended use: to be capable of sailing the sea in relative safety in all weathers.
Spoken like someone who has clearly never experienced "all weather" as there is NO relative safety on any vessel in "all weather".

You can't read about surviving storms in books and on the net and then think you understand what it's like TRUST ME ON THIS ONE!!!!

When you have sailed in weather that requires you to dig out, and to then wear a diving mask, just to be able to open your eyes and see, come back and we'll talk about what "seaworthy" means. BTW we must have looked like total buffoons wearing diving masks but it worked and we could open our eyes without getting blasted blind..

If you had ever experienced a true, violent ocean storm on a small boat, say 60 feet and under, you would never even consider writing a statement like the one above....

P.S. To the OP please chime in and let us know your intended use!
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:26   #33
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David M,
How dare you malign a styrofoam Snark!!
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:37   #34
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David M,
How dare you malign a styrofoam Snark!!
JohnL
Yeah they're foam and un-sinkable..!
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:52   #35
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About the only definite here is that the term "seaworthy" is ambiguous. The real question is whether the captain is seaworthy and if he/she is, the question never gets asked in the first place as he/she already knows the answer.

So, if you have to ask, you have issues and if you sit in judgement of someone's boat, you have bigger issues (or more properly stated as you have "smaller" issues.
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:59   #36
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if you sit in judgement of someone's boat, you have bigger issues (or more properly stated as you have "smaller" issues.
He was in the pool... He was in the pool....
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Old 09-09-2008, 00:33   #37
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Seaworthy Definition

means being in a fit condition or readiness to safely undertake a sea voyage, this includes both boat & crew.
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Old 09-09-2008, 00:52   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Frankly that conclusion strikes me as evasive. I think the word "seaworthy" implies an intended use: to be capable of sailing the sea in relative safety in all weathers.
No - I wasn't evading anything.

Seaworthy - fit or safe for a sea voyage (Miriam-Webster)

Which sea? South China Sea, Celebes Sea, Phillipine Sea, Coral Sea, Java Sea, Andaman Sea, Solomon Sea, Red Sea, Caspian Sea, Black Sea, Barents Sea?

Which one of those is hardest on a boat and crew? And at what time of year?

And what is the difference between an ocean and a sea?

And is there any difference between the Arctic Ocean and the Indian Ocean?

Will the exact same "seaworthy" boat be just as safe and fit for a sea voyage on those two bodies of water?

So by definition a boat fit (or seaworthy) for a jaunt across the Java Sea may not be the boat you want to be in on the Barents Sea in November.

And by assuming an "implication" from Wannabees post does him a disservice in boat choice.
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:05   #39
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As a pilot and an aircraft mechanic, this thread reminds me of the term, "Airworthy". I am required by federal law determine if an aircraft is in airworthy condition when I sign the logs and return it to service, yet the federal government refuses to define the term "airworthy". If the OP refuses to define what he means by "Seaworthy", then the result is what we have, a bunch of different opinions answering a variety of questions. I would take a 32 foot production boat with a shoal draft fin keel every time over a 45 foot, full keel, heavy displacement boat, if the intended cruising ground was fairly calm and shallow, and if I intended to do a lot of docking in tight marinas. And that 32 foot boat would be "seaworthy", for its intended purpose.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:03   #40
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Aloha all,

seaworthiness = prepared for the potential hazards of a sea voyage.

As it happens I am currently reading John Vigor's "The seaworthy offshore sailboat", which I would recommend to anyone interested in the matter.

In the first chapter, entitled "Seaworthiness", the first issue Vigor addresses is a boat's ability to righten itself (and therefore stay afloat) after being turtled. He goes on to say that this situation must be considered as something that will, not may, happen to you at some point.

Seems a good test as any to sort the worthy from those that are not.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:55   #41
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I've never experienced a major storm at sea in a sailboat, but I have in a larger vessel, and that was bad enough.

I'm not denying that certain boats may be more suitable for certain waters, e.g. a shoal draft boat for shallower areas.

Also, as Vigor points out (I've also read his book), a less seaworthy boat can be made more so with the proper refitting: extra bracing for the hull, extra cockpit drains, higher bridge deck, proper safety equipment such as a sea anchor and drogue, and so on.

However, in spite of everyone's reluctance to label any particular brand of boat as less seaworthy, the fact remains that, given crews of equal skill, some boats are more seaworthy than others.

Seaworthy boats are sturdier, better able to right themselves after a rollover (have hull forms that are unstable when the boat is upside down), have fewer large skylights that could be smashed in by a wave, smaller cockpits, firmly secured rudders, sail plans that are more easily managed in high winds...the list goes on. Seaworthy boats are also simpler, with fewer complex systems that might fail at the wrong time, e.g. in-mast furlers.

You don't have to be an experienced circumnavigator to figure this stuff out. Alot of it is common sense.
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:38   #42
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To answer the orginal question the Newsprint brand is not seaworthy. Reviews and tests show that the recyled newspaper used in construction does not hold together much longer than a few hours, even when the "boat" is sitting in crystral clear water with no wind or waves. Testers routinely commment that the Elmers glue used to hold the panels, deck to hull, etc, seemed to just dissolve. The cardbroad filler used in the deck, while appearing stiff at the start, quickly developed many soft areas. Testing was also performed on the standing rigging and the kite string material was oted to allow way too much flex and stretch before it just broke. On a positive note: the boat seems to be enviromentely friendly and it quickly broke down and dissolved, requiring minor cleanup.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:38   #43
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Fresh Out of the Box are Any Seaworthy?

To quote Marchaj:

Quote:
The cruising man[/woman] (my italics) chooses his boat using a different set of priorities from that of a man with a thirst for racing. That being so, there is probably no better way to start a violent argument than to ask what constitutes a modern cruiser/racer.We might, however, agree that the following requirements are of primary importance from the viewpoint of the cruising man[/woman].

Seaworthiness—strong durable and watertight construction, structurally sound rig, good survival characteristics in extreme weather conditions.
Seakindliness—easy motion—freedom from jerky, breakneck rolling motion. In broad terms, that quality in a boat which enables her to receive the forces of a violent sea and render them kindly to animate beings and inanimate objects. To phrase it differently: Seakindliness is that property in a boat which produces a comparatively slow, small, easy motion in spite of rough sea and weather.
Habitability—space for living quarters with good headroom and comfort. It is concerned with providing the crew with an environment that permits them to function effectively without degrading their mental and physical performance because of the boat’s interaction with the sea producing excessive motion (rolling, pitching) and accelerations.

When these objectives have been achieved, the cruising man[/woman] may compromise and consider some other features which contribute to speed performance, being aware that comfort does not necessarily mean slow but merely less fast.
I would judge that any yacht that cannot meet, or be rendered to meet, the foregoing standards of Seaworthiness, Seakindliness and Habitability is not fit as voyaging yacht but simply a day-sailor/coastal cruiser. No?

s/v HyLyte
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:35   #44
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I have one of those in the garage! Fine sailing vessel.


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David M,
How dare you malign a styrofoam Snark!!
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:11   #45
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We need new terminology. I suggest
Roaring-Forties-proof
Sea-of-O-worthy
Seven-seas-worthy
Caribbean-sea-worthy
Near-coastal-worthy
Bayworthy
Lakeworthy
Dockworthy
showroomable
Baylineresque

BUT each rating must be qualified by the rater's position on the RISK scale, varying from 10 (jumps into whirlpools to see where they come out to 0 [zero] (keeps seatbelts on in drive-in movies.)
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