Bluewater Cruising Capability

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by engele

Every "Heavy Displacement" cruiser I can think of has opening ports. The Hans Christian 50' down the dock has them, the forty something foot Westsail next to us at the last marina had them, Swans, Hinkleys, and Morris have them. What boat doesn't have opening ports, displacement aside?

WELDING??? I said replacing it with ... oh I can't think of the name of the stuff, screwed and sealed. Looks very sleek when the edge is rounded, but I believe those who said stout portholes that open are available.

[Mr B]

You can get plastic port holes these day that you cant break with a sledge hammer Raku,
Ask about the toughness of the port holes before you buy them,
Google is your friend, Get the specs on the different types,

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mr B

You can get plastic port holes these day that you cant break with a sledge hammer Raku,
Ask about the toughness of the port holes before you buy them,
Google is your friend, Get the specs on the different types,

Yes I'm drawing a blank on the name of the material right now but it's really tough. of course, the latching mechanism has to be stout too, but anything is better than the cracked ones I have now.

[engele]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

WELDING??? I said replacing it with ... oh I can't think of the name of the stuff, screwed and sealed. Looks very sleek when the edge is rounded, but I believe those who said stout portholes that open are available.

I'm not sure I follow you Raku. I didn't mention anything about welding. Anyhow, I think the main point of this thread was to let the OP know what is safe to sail in. Personally I would take a late model Catalina anywhere I wished to go (certainly before I would take most 1970s heavy cruising boats). There are those that disagree.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by engele

I'm not sure I follow you Raku. I didn't mention anything about welding. Anyhow, I think the main point of this thread was to let the OP know what is safe to sail in. Personally I would take a late model Catalina anywhere I wished to go (certainly before I would take most 1970s heavy cruising boats). There are those that disagree.

someone said welding. If it wasn't you, slap this message board silly!

[Mr B]

Google, Shatter proof plastics, Thats a start, then take it from there,

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Google, Shatter proof plastics, Thats a start, then take it from there,

I remembered it. It's Lexan (polycarbonate).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bash

Actually, I think that openable portholes are much stronger than windows. (We're talking about boats here, right?)

Your original statement, "My boat has portholes that open. Before I took this boat bluewater I would replace them with fixed" is a perfect example of what I'm coming to think of as "bluewater paranoia." Right at this moment, this very moment, there are thousands of boats and ships transiting the ocean with portholes without any problem whatsoever. Really.

I'll never forget the first time I got caught offshore in a gale. We ran before it for two days in a 14' swell with breaking waves. I kept thinking we would get pooped, probably because of hearing sentiment such as has already been expressed in this thread, that being pooped is inevitable. And yet my sugar-scooped boat lifted her dainty stern over every breaking wave, every breaking wave, for 48 hours running. Why? Because she wasn't some awkward 4ksb with the displacement/length ratio of a bulldozer and more washboards than freeboard.

If folks want to go to sea in a lifeboat with all the portholes nailed shut, be my guest. But this talk of "prudent terror" and the consequent fear of cockpits, portholes, sugar-scoop transoms, et cetera is nonsense. Let's call it what it really is: bluewater paranoia.

As I maintained early on in this thread, the ocean just isn't that scary. Certainly not scary enough to induce me to weld my portholes shut.

+1 bash +1.

Dave

[Ballenxj]

This is an interesting thread, quite educational.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I remembered it. It's Lexan (polycarbonate).

Or maybe "Plexiglass?" You know, the stuff they make bullet proof windows out of?
-Bruce

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I do wish you would stop being insulting. You can make your points without it.

Why are you looking at the BOAT when the SAILOR is also the issue? A newbie should not be sailing blue waters. Doesn't matter what the boat is.

A top notch sailor could probably sail that McGregor anywhere safely.

I agree. You're arguing your opinion and cherry-picking your "facts." My toerail is really stout, a 1983 boat with NO leaks. None. One of the reasons I like this boat. I lost my old Irwin to a failed hull-to-deck joining.

Some production boats ARE better than others, and discounting the skills of the sailor makes no sense. You can't claim logic but cherry-pick your facts, and as soon as insults start to fly, no one will take you seriously.

Jezz.. I leave for a few hours and now I have to catch up. Rukuflames, if I have insulted anyone with my contentious style which has the tendency not to suffer fools its because of the seriousness of the subject matter. No one should take it personally. I learned a long time ago that if you engage in conversation on the Internet you better develop a thick skin. Frankly this site is rather tame compared to the political forums I have frequented. You can thank your Moderators for that. I’ll try to tone it down but don’t count on it.

Your opening hatch dilemma should not be a dilemma at all. If you are bringing your boat up to Blue Water spec’s get rid of the plastic and replace with bronze, stainless steel or aluminum. No need to close them all up and make them non opening. My ports and hatches are SS and I have no intention to change them but if I were to go across the pond I would carry a few hatch and port boards that can be fastened in a hurry if one was stove in. That’s my left brain at work. Besides, plywood is cheap.

So you live in Tampa and want to seal them ALL up? Christ, what will you do if your AC quits? Replace them with metal opening ports and hatches and rest easy.

RT
PS Seaworthiness implies boat. Skill and experience refers to the skipper. Both important but different and separate considerations.

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

So you’ve read Marchaj? Who hasn’t? I prefer Sail Performance – it is more relevant than much of his work on hulls. Especially since almost all of his work was done prior to computer aided hydro modelling came out – much of which throws questions into many of his assumptions and conclusions…


That source prooves nothing. Look at the professionals and authors out there pilling on the miles in their boats. What designs are they using like Jimmy Cornell or Beth and Evans Starzinger?


If you want more relevant design undersanding read Fossati’s book on hull performance.





IN this I will agree with you to the extent that a noob should not take a boat like this across an ocean, doesnt make the boat not blue water capable but I wouldnt want a brand new driver driving a ferrari either - not saying the 315 is a ferrari


In many cases full keel boat is more forgiving of skipper error in bad weather - I will fully grant that. However there are trade offs for this that make it less capable an offshore boat than a more modern design for a competent and experienced skipper.






This is patently untrue. Many a seaworthy boat has been abandoned, turtled or dismasted due to user error and not any issue inherent in the design of the boat.




I actually wouldnt be surprised as I owned a predeccesor to the West Sail. My last boat was a 1932 32' Thistle Double Ended Gaffer. Carvel planked Alden/Atkin design build and the sister ship to Eric. I am well familiar with full keel boats and the passage times and handling of them.
The idea that a modern boat is only marginally faster than a traditional boat illustrates what you are missing about the key developments of the last 50 years in boat and sail design.

We all know that hull speed is: SQRT(Length at Waterline) * 1.34 = ~Max Hull Speed. This is not what has fundamentally changed in the last half century. What has changed is the amount of energy it requires to get a boat up to hull speed in addition to a boats upwind pointing angle and speed.

Your 37' boat will travel at the same speed as a light displacement boat of the same length in 30kt conditions - but there will be a stark difference in the two boat's speed in 10kt wind conditions.





Again this is only a half truth. WIth the proper uses of drag devices and seamanship in many cases where you are sitting hove, a production boat may still be able to make way towards its given destination. This is where I had to rewind and agree with you on the fact that a noob would be better off on a boat that requires less experience to sail safely in heavy weather.






I refer what I said above. With the exception of race boats, the modern cruiser is not designed to have a faster max speed but is designed to be able to reach its hull speed with less effort and therefore make passages more quickly. This is not a regression - this is the result of better knowledge and design. Marchaj is a god when it comes to what he prouced when he produced it, but science and computer technology has moved on and there are some aspects of his assumptions that dont entirely prove out as well as the real world statistics of the boats successfully making RTW trips, being sold to another owner and doing it again, and repeat...





You have told me your opinion, it is not a fact. We can leave it to the noob to educate himself with all the information available to them. They will hopefully do so, buy a boat and then come back here and vigorously defend the decision process that led them to buy thier boat...


...and like you VT, they wont be wrong. It will be right for them.


Bluewater Capability is a polynomial equation with more than one solution.

You bring up some excellent points and I commend you for a well polished argument. Matter of fact I have to eat a little crow here and admit that it is I who have to catch up on my reading. Fossati now is on my must read list. Thanks for the heads up.

We both conclude that the 315 is NOT a boat a newbie should consider. Yet you still consider it a Blue Water boat. Please define what redeeming features make it so. Hopefully you won’t tell me, if handled by an experienced skipper. That in my opinion would be irrelevant.

You go on to say full keeled boats are more forgiving and that is true but they are less capable an offshore boat than more modern designs handled by a competent and experienced skipper. With respect to what, speed? Or is it once again the misnomer that a Blue Water boat is dependent upon an experienced skipper? This would be where we differ. The boat is either Blue Water or not. The skipper is after the fact and has nothing to do with the seaworthiness of a vessel. An experienced skipper only enhances your chances for a safe passage.

My statement that modern cruising designs are only marginally faster than my Slocum I believe to be a valid statement. I get up to hull speed in a 12-13 knot breeze. Not bad for a 28K pound full keeled boat. Under 10 knots and yes I am not going to perform. But that is the trade off for ultimate stability and ease of motion in a seaway.

If speed is what you are looking for a double ender will not be your cup of tea. However if your concern is to be able to handle extreme sea conditions with confidence then a double ender should be on your short list. This is not to say that more modern boats cannot handle these extreme conditions, as long as their construction has not been compromised by cost cutting bottom line thinking. The fin keel and spade rudder designs for reasons previously given just wouldn’t be my choice for Blue Water.

And you are right, I am only stating my opinion. Aren’t we all? Conjecture is not fact and a prospective buyer will have to do their homework to come up with an educated choice.

RT

[goboatingnow]

I'll repeat it again. There are of course certain production models that are poorly built. But they are few and getting fewer. You don't need ( or want) full keels or barn door rudders to have a blue water boat. They are thinking from a different age. Most reasonably built production boats are of such quality as to be more then sufficient for prudent so called blue water sailing. Thats all you need , you may want more, that's your prerogative.

I've sailed gazillions of miles , and delivered almost exclusively production boats. I can tell you the skipper makes a huge difference.

The fact is most production boats in the hands of a prudent and competent skipper are blue water capable. That's a simple fact based on what's is being used and where they are sailing today.

The rest is rubbish put forth by people that in my experience simply read too many books a d haven't got enough actual experience. When I hear people talking about removing opening port lights I just laugh and shake my head. Are these people for real. Have you been in a knock down or a roll or talked first hand to those that have. I've be far more worried about the batteries flying around then the port light leaking. The biggest factor showing inexperience is an inane focusing on things that in real life don't matter ( like full keels)

Too many people read alard Coles or Marchaj as if its some sort of bible no more then people quote the Pardys as if they are the only way to do things. Yet often all this information is dated or is specific to a vessel type or a particular way of thinking. People then latch on to " ideas" as if somehow,that will protect them when they themselves f€ck up. The same people search for particular solution in heavy weather, again not realising there are no specific solutions only experience and an understanding of ones boat.

How certain people can fly in the face of what's. actually being sailed out here every day. !!!

It's like people telling you there safer in a SUV, when for example NCAP testing says otherwise. It's beggars beleive.

Dave

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

+1 bash +1.

Dave

Should have known it was Bash. Should have guessed.

Guess he missed where I said I wouldn't take my boat out to blue water. Maybe he missed how I really got some valuable information from the discussion. Thanks to those with helpful replies.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ballenxj

This is an interesting thread, quite educational.

Or maybe "Plexiglass?" You know, the stuff they make bullet proof windows out of?
-Bruce

No, my friend the retired naval architect prefers polycarbonate. I've helped him replace windows using it.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by vtcapo

Jezz.. I leave for a few hours and now I have to catch up. Rukuflames, if I have insulted anyone with my contentious style which has the tendency not to suffer fools its because of the seriousness of the subject matter. No one should take it personally. I learned a long time ago that if you engage in conversation on the Internet you better develop a thick skin. Frankly this site is rather tame compared to the political forums I have frequented. You can thank your Moderators for that. I’ll try to tone it down but don’t count on it.

Your opening hatch dilemma should not be a dilemma at all. If you are bringing your boat up to Blue Water spec’s get rid of the plastic and replace with bronze, stainless steel or aluminum. No need to close them all up and make them non opening. My ports and hatches are SS and I have no intention to change them but if I were to go across the pond I would carry a few hatch and port boards that can be fastened in a hurry if one was stove in. That’s my left brain at work. Besides, plywood is cheap.

So you live in Tampa and want to seal them ALL up? Christ, what will you do if your AC quits? Replace them with metal opening ports and hatches and rest easy.

RT
PS Seaworthiness implies boat. Skill and experience refers to the skipper. Both important but different and separate considerations.

I just think there's a more effective way to not suffer fools gladly, and since we're all fools on occasion -- watch out for that glass house!