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Old 04-12-2012, 01:31   #781
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Regarding a storm sail. I drop the spinnaker halyard down and fix it to the U-bolt used for the tack of the Gennaker. I have a storm sail with "soft" hanks and raise it using the spinnaker pole halyard.

Comes close to a inner forestay and works well.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:48   #782
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post

Anchoring gear,
I've seen quality boats with rubbish and ordinary production with good setups and everything in between

Here i agree, i see the same crap in 500000 euros boats.
I was not referring to the size of the supplied anchor, but will the boat take the larger, heavier equipment needed for blue water cruising.

Will the anchor locker take the 100m (330 feet) of chain that's needed or at least very desirable, in some parts of the world, without jamming?
Is the the electric anchor winch capable of handling the weight of this chain and large anchor?
Will the bow roller accommodate a suitable sized cruising anchor?
Is the bow roller assembly strong enough?
Are the cleats strong enough to cope with the snatch loads on the snubber.
Is there storage (preferably in outside lockers) for a couple of extra anchors, chain and rode? (Together with all the other cruising gear)

The above points may seem trivial, but anyone who has done bluewater cruising will realise they are important. Some of these areas are impossible to upgrade if they are not suitable.

The anchoring system is only one minor system in a bluewater cruising boat, but this sort of detailed analysis need to be looked at for all on board systems to asses the suitability / comfort / safety of a boat for bluewater cruising.
No boat is perfect, but the dedicated cruising boats like Amel, or HR do these things better (as you expect for the price) than the equivalent sized AWB.

To dismiss the advantage of these expensive, dedicated, cruising boats as mere marketing gloss, as some posters have, means you are missing noticing these type of details.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:50   #783
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I was not referring to the size of the supplied anchor, but will the boat take the larger, heavier equipment needed for blue water cruising.

Will the anchor locker take the 100m (330 feet) of chain that's needed or at least very desirable, in some parts of the world, without jamming?
Is the the electric anchor winch capable of handling the weight of this chain and large anchor?
Will the bow roller accommodate a suitable sized cruising anchor?
Is the bow roller assembly strong enough?
Are the cleats strong enough to cope with the snatch loads on the snubber.
Is there storage (preferably in outside lockers) for a couple of extra anchors, chain and rode? (Together with all the other cruising gear)

The above points may seem trivial, but anyone who has done bluewater cruising
will realise they are important.

The anchoring system is only one minor system in a bluewater cruising boat, but this sort of detailed analysis need to be looked at for all on board systems to asses the suitability / comfort / safety of a boat for bluewater cruising.
No boat is perfect, but the dedicated cruising boats like Amel, or HR do these things better (as you expect for the price) than the equivalent sized AWB.
+2
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:43   #784
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I was not referring to the size of the supplied anchor, but will the boat take the larger, heavier equipment needed for blue water cruising.

Will the anchor locker take the 100m (330 feet) of chain that's needed or at least very desirable, in some parts of the world, without jamming?
Is the the electric anchor winch capable of handling the weight of this chain and large anchor?
Will the bow roller accommodate a suitable sized cruising anchor?
Is the bow roller assembly strong enough?
Are the cleats strong enough to cope with the snatch loads on the snubber.
Is there storage (preferably in outside lockers) for a couple of extra anchors, chain and rode? (Together with all the other cruising gear)

The above points may seem trivial, but anyone who has done bluewater cruising will realise they are important. Some of these areas are impossible to upgrade if they are not suitable.

The anchoring system is only one minor system in a bluewater cruising boat, but this sort of detailed analysis need to be looked at for all on board systems to asses the suitability / comfort / safety of a boat for bluewater cruising.
No boat is perfect, but the dedicated cruising boats like Amel, or HR do these things better (as you expect for the price) than the equivalent sized AWB.

To dismiss the advantage of these expensive, dedicated, cruising boats as mere marketing gloss, as some posters have, means you are missing noticing these type of details.
I have never heard of (which does not mean that it does not exist) any boat which is delivered from the yard with decent ground tackle, even expensive non-production boats. To this day, they all seem to have deals with Delta, and supply a light one of those with 30 or 40 meters of chain -- the least you can get away with.

I have a sneaking feeling that they don't want to weigh down the bow with all that ground tackle and lose that little bit of performance -- they want owners (and magazine testers) to experience max performance -- they'll worry about ground tackle later

My boat came with a 25kg Delta and 40 meters of 12mm chain. I replaced it with first a 55kg Rocna (then later, a 100 pound Spade) and 100 meters or 330 feet of 12mm chain, weighing nearly half a ton together.

Fortunately, my boat was designed with a large basically walk in anchor locker which swallowed all that 12mm chain with ease, leaving another compartment free for a big Fortress plus rode, collection of snubbers, and when under way, about half of my inventory of fenders.

Strongly agree about cleats -- very few boats have cleats large or strong enough.

I've got those, but my boat lacks something a really heavy duty cruising boat ought to have -- a strong sampson post and a heavy-duty horizontal windlass. Clutters up the deck and ruins the sleek appearance -- is why everyone including Oyster, HR, Contest, etc. fit the low-profile vertical jobs, which are much less useful.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:12   #785
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have never heard of (which does not mean that it does not exist) any boat which is delivered from the yard with decent ground tackle, even expensive non-production boats. To this day, they all seem to have deals with Delta, and supply a light one of those with 30 or 40 meters of chain -- the least you can get away with.

I have a sneaking feeling that they don't want to weigh down the bow with all that ground tackle and lose that little bit of performance -- they want owners (and magazine testers) to experience max performance -- they'll worry about ground tackle later

My boat came with a 25kg Delta and 40 meters of 12mm chain. I replaced it with first a 55kg Rocna (then later, a 100 pound Spade) and 100 meters or 330 feet of 12mm chain, weighing nearly half a ton together.

Fortunately, my boat was designed with a large basically walk in anchor locker which swallowed all that 12mm chain with ease, leaving another compartment free for a big Fortress plus rode, collection of snubbers, and when under way, about half of my inventory of fenders.

Strongly agree about cleats -- very few boats have cleats large or strong enough.

I've got those, but my boat lacks something a really heavy duty cruising boat ought to have -- a strong sampson post and a heavy-duty horizontal windlass. Clutters up the deck and ruins the sleek appearance -- is why everyone including Oyster, HR, Contest, etc. fit the low-profile vertical jobs, which are much less useful.
That explains a few points to me, My boat came with a delta, and a Bruce anchor,
I used the Delta once in Fiji, but didnt drag to it being stuck on an old cable,

I only found out it dragged when I got to Vanuatu, Twice, The Bruce was totally useless, it just would not set or bite in, it just dragged along the sea floor, I didnt trust it so I didnt use it,

New anchors when I get home, as the bloke selling good Sarca anchors is just up the road from me,

My boat didnt come with a windlass for the anchor, which I thought was strange, Boats this size all had them to pull up all that chain,
But I am pretty fit so it didnt worry me, When I am over the anchor it just the weight of the chain I am pulling up, which isnt a great deal, Plus I only anchor in 20 feet or less of depth,
The Delta dragged again in Bundaberg on the change of tide, a rock got caught in the flukes as it rolled over to change direction,
The Delta dragged again on the western side of Broughton Island while I was repairing the steering. Yes, it was set properly,
I will buy new anchors in Port Stephens, I can get the ones from Melbourne there, Plus new steering cables before I head for home,
Then the Delta and Bruce dragged again inside Broughton island while I was sheltering from the storm with winds in excess of 35 knots the night before, which stopped me from going to Port Stephens with a dodgy steering, Only 12 miles away,

No windlass and crappy anchors, and no Samson post, Selling a new boat with out a lot of extra weight Explains why boats dont have good gear on them brand new,

This is stuff you dont really think about untill you need it.

I had Delta's on all my fishing boats, only on rope, not chain, But they werent in the water long enough to really find out if they would hold, as bad weather had you scooting for home any way,

Bad weather and fishing boats with a low transom dont mix,
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:19   #786
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
A large sleeping berth is the last thing you want at sea. You want to be wedged in tight so your body doesn't have to worry about sliding around or off the berth. A good bluewater boat will have small sea berths, about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way aft.
On a 2 year circumnavigation you spent approx 550 nights on the hook or in marinas. It makes perfect sense for me to spend these nights in our large and comfortable queen size bed in the aft cabin, rather than in one of narrow sea berths.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:27   #787
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
No boat is perfect, but the dedicated cruising boats like Amel, or HR do these things better (as you expect for the price) than the equivalent sized AWB.

To dismiss the advantage of these expensive, dedicated, cruising boats as mere marketing gloss, as some posters have, means you are missing noticing these type of details.
I dont think anyone is not acknowledging that within the spread of production boats, there arent variations ranging from middle priced to expensive, no more then there are Toyotas and BMWs etc. I would strongly argue that on detailed inspection, one cannot see the huge disparity in pricing as it pertains to teh basic engineering of the boat. One can see lovingly handcrafted interiors, high quality finishes and cosmetic interiors and the offer of partial customisation, sure, but not the basic boat.

To suggest that many of these models are dedicated cruising boats is not on the button. Most HRs are cruised extensively no more then most Beneteaus are either. And lets leave Amels out of this , this is a million euro boat. For that I've have K&M build one.

Im not on a crusade against Hr or for Bennys, merely that I ascertain and with good proof, that most production boats within a size range are capable of meeting the needs of "blue water" cruising ( whatever that means to many people) . Sure they all need a few tweaks but thats normal.

It is a ridiculous notion not backed by any science or fact , that somehow you need a brick "sh^thouse", long keeled, large tankage boat, ( ie a valient, westsail HC, ) if you intend to disappear over the horizon. This view seems to pertain particularly in the US, which is as I have said not a good statisical example when it comes to cruising. The fact is and it is being demonstrated nearly every day, that modern boats with a prudent skipper and some preparation can cruise where you need to go, cross oceans when you need to and be in general a comfortable and safe place to live/sail

Dave
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:39   #788
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I tremendously respect the Pardeys, but they have a lot of eccentric opinions - remember they also don't believe in engines! More power to 'em, but that approach to cruising is not for me personally.

I'll go with Dashew's approach - his 65' Sundeer is close to my ideal long range cruiser. Dashew also knows a bit about crossing oceans, I think you'll agree. Or a Holman & Pye designed 68' Oyster (yum). Or a Moody 66. Or in a pinch, my own boat
I wasn't advocating any particular POV (as regards size). Just throwing it out there.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:59   #789
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Racing yacht Spock, a Farr 585CC owned by German sailor Thomas Schumacher, lost her mast on Friday and the crew managed to cut it away before motoring to Mindello. World Cruising Club (WCC) manager Andrew Bishop comments: "They dealt with the MRCC and were very self-contained."

She will be joined by Modus Vivendi, a Motiva 49, a cruising division boat skippered by Norwegian Dag Rorslett. The entire rudder of the boat dropped out of the boat, a heavy Danish steel-built pilothouse cruiser. The crew reportedly managed to stop up the hole.
So, bluewater boats, a Farr55 and a semi custom high quality dutch steel boat, ( and teh rudder fell out , Thats using reserved for Hunters!!). LOL

Quote:
Meanwhile, the racing division has had a mixed bag of weather, but the leading group including a Swan 80, the JP54 and new Pogo 50 could be on course to finish in around 11 days, possibly close to the record.
The Pogo was built for a very experienced french cruiser. and is being taken across by its designer. Note non with the exception of the Swan , might be traditional cruisers or even racer cruisers.

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:11   #790
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
And lets leave Amels out of this , this is a million euro boat. For that I've have K&M build one.
+1
Would you choose one of K&M unpainted aluminium Bestevaer yachts that the yard is most famous for
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:16   #791
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Maybe if we redo the question to just be "cruising capability" we would get a better discussion! I think the "blue" word always turns everyone's attention to the rare massive storm event that is very rare for a "cruiser" to experience

Unless you are talking about a fairly large boat you have to decide which direction you want your boat to be!

A cruising boat is a LOT more than something to sail. Do you want good living and cruising comfort, or do want to be less uncomfortable* when sailing in rough conditions?

Are you more interested in the boat having the capabilities to match the 90+% of what you are going to do with it? Or are you more interested in being less uncomfortable* during the less than 1% of crappy time you are using your boat?

I got both of the boats I have had based on being able to cruise long distance on them. In that regard the boat needed to be strong enough for foreseeable bad weather that was reasonable (and over the past 5 years I have found that my wife and I trend to go out to sail in weather that most others don't). But be fun and enjoyable to be on most of the time (in port, at anchor, general sailing).

I never wanted to be a sailor, I wanted to be a cruiser!!! I never had sailed prior to deciding I wanted to be a cruiser so came into it full of fear that has been mostly completely unreasonable.

* I say "less uncomfortable" because the window between changing from being comfortable to being uncomfortable on most boats of different design is small. No boat that we mostly talk about here really is what I would call comfortable in very poor conditions, just less uncomfortable. After that is is just a crappy ride regardless!
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:48   #792
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Here i dont get the point, teak interiors noisy at sea?? it depend of the quality of joining the cabinets, floor, doors etc...teak be in the marine industry for a while, and when properly maintained can last for the life of the boat in the other side the plastics you mention are prone to delamination , the noise you mention is more related to hull flexing ..


Properly maintained teak will keep from being noisy at sea????


Quality equipment. Virtually all deck gear, engines, gennys electronics are the same from hanse to HR , yanmar, Volvo, seldon facnor, Lewmar, giot etc etc.

Hard dodger
Well that's eliminated 99% of everything under 55 feet. Even HR has to go big to get hard dodger on the smaller ones you need to be about 5 feet tall to use them effectively. The HR dodgers on the 46 ate a joke if you're in any way tall.

solar/ Wind

Most boats anyway have to be modified to carry solar



But !! WTF you talking about Dave?? A solar panel mounted in a permanent position is a source of juice until the sun goes down ,
and many are solar friendly installation anyway,.

Can you suggest installation for more than 200W of PVs without a dedicated, custom built support/arch, etc?

Anchoring gear,
I've seen quality boats with rubbish and ordinary production with good setups and everything in between

Here i agree, i see the same crap in 500000 euros boats.


Impact durability
You pan on hitting things in the middle of an ocean very rare event , your much more likely to fall overboard. List the boats with good watertight bulkheads !!


Benetau 50 have one small section under the chain locker, complety watertight, no doubt that a watertight section in the bow can save the boat in a collision scenario, particular at the bow section, we dont see many production boats with this feature and i guess the cost is involved, a simple collision at hull speed can send a boat to the bottom and probably a bulkhead can save the boat, so why not??




You see what you've described is not met by almost any boat today wether its HR or beneteau. All need tweaks and twiddles. In all a function of perception , and marketing hype.

The fact is a well prepared production boat like beneteau, Hanse etc will do what you want. , don't beleive me, look at the many doing it. Of course you may have 1000000 euros for a 55 foot Amel ( slagged of in France as an old mans slow boat ) ( and full of custom Amel spare parts , try getting a furling motor outside Amel) others can pay under 200k and get a 40. Footer. I can tell you I'd prefer to start with a 45 foot Benny and put another 100k in then buy an Amel.

Yeah sure, comparing a bendytoy with a supermaramu is unfair , here you pay the extra features, watertight bulkheads, a real engine room, are you ever be in a supermaramu or maramu?? the list is nice, let me remind you pls, watertight bulkheads, backup for engine furlers, superior hull construction compared wit beneteau , the engine room is super, the hard dodger to, tanks are big enough to cover big distances, and well deck to hull joint fiberglased , here is the extra cost compared with a beneteau..
Amels are made in one piece..i remember a article of Henri Amel saying that this boats can be pick up by the chainplates... worth the extra money ... If is a boat for old people i dont know, but the strenght and the quality is real and many can cover 200 miles in average in good conditions...

Real engine room in reserved for larger boats not really good comparison. Back up engine furlers? Is taht some proprietary equipment? Almost all over 50' boats have large tanks...
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:56   #793
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
+1
Would you choose one of K&M unpainted aluminium Bestevaer yachts that the yard is most famous for
absolutly, I met the owner once and his custom boat, maybe get them to build me a stadship

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Old 04-12-2012, 08:08   #794
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Here i dont get the point, teak interiors noisy at sea?? it depend of the quality of joining the cabinets, floor, doors etc...teak be in the marine industry for a while, and when properly maintained can last for the life of the boat in the other side the plastics you mention are prone to delamination , the noise you mention is more related to hull flexing ..


Properly maintained teak will keep from being noisy at sea????
My experience was in a HR, with a full teak interior, the creaking was from the cabinetry, its was properly maintained.

Quote:
But !! WTF you talking about Dave?? A solar panel mounted in a permanent position is a source of juice until the sun goes down ,
and many are solar friendly installation anyway,.

Can you suggest installation for more than 200W of PVs without a dedicated, custom built support/arch, etc?
Thats exactly what I was saying, (a) you dont need solar to cross oceans, its a nice to have, and (b) no boat comes out of the wrapper able to carry them.

Quote:
Benetau 50 have one small section under the chain locker, complety watertight, no doubt that a watertight section in the bow can save the boat in a collision scenario, particular at the bow section, we dont see many production boats with this feature and i guess the cost is involved, a simple collision at hull speed can send a boat to the bottom and probably a bulkhead can save the boat, so why not??
Yes I know, and so do many other types, a lot of the french and other boats now have exotic impact resistant materials there too. I beleive a modern hull can handle a full speed impact with a blunt object and not go to the bottom. Ive hit rocks at full speed while racing , we didnt go to the bottom

Quote:
Yeah sure, comparing a bendytoy with a supermaramu is unfair , here you pay the extra features, watertight bulkheads, a real engine room, are you ever be in a supermaramu or maramu?? the list is nice, let me remind you pls, watertight bulkheads, backup for engine furlers, superior hull construction compared wit beneteau , the engine room is super, the hard dodger to, tanks are big enough to cover big distances, and well deck to hull joint fiberglased , here is the extra cost compared with a beneteau..
Not only have I been onboard several, Ive sailed two. Yes of course you can see where the money goes, but not 1 million euros, I can get a full custom 46-50 footer for that.

And amels,

(1) The hard dodger isnt fully hard
(2) Yes a proper engine room, but only really accessible from the cockpit
(3) Superior hull construction - how do you know, have you seen the specs Ive not seen hull deck problems with Amels or Beneteaus.
(4) Big tanks, in these days of watermakers , for what

(5) Poor chart table for such a boat
(7) poor sheeting angles
(6) Lots of systems to maintain, including lots of Amel custom parts etc

Dont get me wrong , its a beautiful boat, is it worth the money Hmmmmm.


Quote:
bendytoy
a perjorative term , which shows where youre coming from
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:01   #795
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
My experience was in a HR, with a full teak interior, the creaking was from the cabinetry, its was properly maintained.



Thats exactly what I was saying, (a) you dont need solar to cross oceans, its a nice to have, and (b) no boat comes out of the wrapper able to carry them.



Yes I know, and so do many other types, a lot of the french and other boats now have exotic impact resistant materials there too. I beleive a modern hull can handle a full speed impact with a blunt object and not go to the bottom. Ive hit rocks at full speed while racing , we didnt go to the bottom



Not only have I been onboard several, Ive sailed two. Yes of course you can see where the money goes, but not 1 million euros, I can get a full custom 46-50 footer for that.

And amels,

(1) The hard dodger isnt fully hard
(2) Yes a proper engine room, but only really accessible from the cockpit
(3) Superior hull construction - how do you know, have you seen the specs Ive not seen hull deck problems with Amels or Beneteaus.
(4) Big tanks, in these days of watermakers , for what

(5) Poor chart table for such a boat
(7) poor sheeting angles
(6) Lots of systems to maintain, including lots of Amel custom parts etc

Dont get me wrong , its a beautiful boat, is it worth the money Hmmmmm.



a perjorative term , which shows where youre coming from
Dave


Dave, im in the boat repair busines for the last 17 years mate, you cant say teak is noisy because you be in a creacky HR, I be in many fantastic plastic laminted boats and can creack to, so saying that a plastic laminated interior is noisy is wrong in my eyes, mostly the fault is a hull flexing or working in a seaway.

I know by experience how a Amel is build it because 2 years agoo we repair a hurricane damaged Supermaramu here in st marteen, as i say before hull to deck joint fiberglased, watertight bulkheads , etc...

In the other side this past hurricane season we have Beny 50 in the yard with lots of work and upgrades in the list, and with lots of flaws from the builder, like the oil canning at the chainplates hull atach point, lots of places to fill with water pan liners , lack of limber holes in the hull grid, the bow watertight compartment fill it with 20 gallons of rain water because the liner is not glued properly at the anchor locker drain hole, a heavily rusted Iron Keel, all the teak in cockpit seats and transom start to lifting up, a masive crack in the floor liner at the aft starboard cabin due travelift haul out , probably lot of flexing, we sand the bottom to gelcoat and found lots of spider cosmetic cracks around the waterline , some close around the keel joint, we recaulk 4 topsides windows, amazing this windows are just glued to the hull with sikaflex, no screws or any mechanical way to secure the windows, etc...its a 1998 beneteau 50.
So yes he won the term of bendytoy for something ,,, lots of boat for the money in the other side....

I have some pictures if you want to see it...

About the backups for electric furler engines in the Amel i try to say that there is a manual backup in case the engine fail.

Cheers...
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For Sale: Cruising Guides and Sailing Resource Books svdreamkeeper Classifieds Archive 3 23-11-2011 12:24



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