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Old 03-12-2012, 20:03   #766
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
One aspect that has been touched on in this thread, but not covered in great detail is blue water cruising ability.
Long distance cruising does place some extra demands on a boat beyond the seaworthiness requirements. Some of these requirements are:


Large sleeping berths
A large sleeping berth is the last thing you want at sea. You want to be wedged in tight so your body doesn't have to worry about sliding around or off the berth. A good bluewater boat will have small sea berths, about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way aft.
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Old 03-12-2012, 20:25   #767
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

My lovely comfortable queen sized bed about 3/4 the way forward was a waste of space,
Levitating 6 inches of the bed, is not fun or good for sleeping,

The Dunny and shower on the other side at the forward position was just totally dangerous to use, You had to hang on like grim death, and being flung up and down and sideways all at the same time,
The rear Bunk on the leeward side, under the cockpit, was the best to sleep in, but it was too much trouble to get out of when things went bump in the night, or the boat sounded different,

So I slept in the salon on the settee,

On the swing mooring or in the Marina, The beds and everything else was great, easy to use,
But out there, A whole different story,
The cockpit and transom were the place to be, at least it didnt jump around, It was always flat and level,
The down galley, was all right, you could jam your self in between the cupboards, Getting a coffee out of the microwave, WOW, that took some learning, on the steps down to the galley,
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Old 03-12-2012, 20:41   #768
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Sea berths - bit of thread drift, but interesting. My boat sleeps 7 without using the salon, and is often full - function of how I use my boat. I've myself slept in every bunk on the boat. The best sea berths are the two over-and-under singles in the Pullman cabin starboard and forward (but aft of the fore cabin). They are long and comfy, and the walls are heavily padded and upholstered. Put the lee cloths up and it's like being in the womb - lovely! The motion is fine there (it's not too far ahead of the center of the boat).

I have slept underway in my own queen sized bunk aft and it's fine in reasonable weather. The bunk comprises two single mattresses so I will install a lee cloth between them before I set out further afield.

Sailing overnight and short-handed, however, I mostly sleep in the salon, within screaming distance of the cockpit.
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Old 03-12-2012, 20:44   #769
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Ok. You can cross the Atlantic with 4 crew on 400 litres of water , not difficult to carry in most production boats if you include bottled water. Or fit a water maker

Fuel tanks.

Why do they need to be big , it's a sailing boat they need to be adequate that's all.


Have a nice fuel tank or 2 is priceless when you are in far remote locations with no diesel in sight or when you are in the midle of nowhere with 5 or 6 days becalmed,.



Large gas

Why, ? you can cover the Atlantic on two camping Gaz cylinders

Large food.

You can take enough food for 4 on a production 40 footer to cross the pond again no problem, what with modern foods etc. funny even on smaller islands there are quite good stores these days. It not the 1950s. On average on passage 1-2 weeks food is enough, only occasionally will you need 3-5 weeks and then you use up every a available space

Quality durable finish.

You can't beat GRP, Ogh HR are cored , where Hanse is all solid vinyl ester. Yep quality , interiors. Modern laminated etc far more durable then hand crafted teak. Doesn't look as good of course. ( ps all teak interiors can be incredibly noisy at sea )


Here i dont get the point, teak interiors noisy at sea?? it depend of the quality of joining the cabinets, floor, doors etc...teak be in the marine industry for a while, and when properly maintained can last for the life of the boat in the other side the plastics you mention are prone to delamination , the noise you mention is more related to hull flexing ..



Quality equipment. Virtually all deck gear, engines, gennys electronics are the same from hanse to HR , yanmar, Volvo, seldon facnor, Lewmar, giot etc etc.

Hard dodger
Well that's eliminated 99% of everything under 55 feet. Even HR has to go big to get hard dodger on the smaller ones you need to be about 5 feet tall to use them effectively. The HR dodgers on the 46 ate a joke if you're in any way tall.

solar/ Wind

While we talk about these, they are nice to haves , you can get buy with a good alternator most solar systems are to provide self sufficiency at anchor anyway, underway a good towed genny is a compact option. Most boats anyway have to be modified to carry solar



But !! WTF you talking about Dave?? A solar panel mounted in a permanent position is a source of juice until the sun goes down ,
and many are solar friendly installation anyway,.

Anchoring gear,
I've seen quality boats with rubbish and ordinary production with good setups and everything in between

Here i agree, i see the same crap in 500000 euros boats.

Sail plan
That's not dependant on any type of vessel. Modern furlers have rendered the cutter less advantageous then previously. There are few cutters anyway, most are slutters , myself I think the Solent rig is better especially downwind.


In a modern sloop , without a inner forestay no way to rig a storm jib , and many new production boats come from factory like that, no inner forestay ,the solent rig is nice downwind but to weather is useless,so unless the boat is fited with a staysail, flying a stormjib or a heavy jib or hove to is tough if not imposible...the cutter here win, for downwind sailing there is marvelous genakers or light air sails,,,

Impact durability
You pan on hitting things in the middle of an ocean very rare event , your much more likely to fall overboard. List the boats with good watertight bulkheads !!


Benetau 50 have one small section under the chain locker, complety watertight, no doubt that a watertight section in the bow can save the boat in a collision scenario, particular at the bow section, we dont see many production boats with this feature and i guess the cost is involved, a simple collision at hull speed can send a boat to the bottom and probably a bulkhead can save the boat, so why not??




You see what you've described is not met by almost any boat today wether its HR or beneteau. All need tweaks and twiddles. In all a function of perception , and marketing hype.

The fact is a well prepared production boat like beneteau, Hanse etc will do what you want. , don't beleive me, look at the many doing it. Of course you may have 1000000 euros for a 55 foot Amel ( slagged of in France as an old mans slow boat ) ( and full of custom Amel spare parts , try getting a furling motor outside Amel) others can pay under 200k and get a 40. Footer. I can tell you I'd prefer to start with a 45 foot Benny and put another 100k in then buy an Amel.

Yeah sure, comparing a bendytoy with a supermaramu is unfair , here you pay the extra features, watertight bulkheads, a real engine room, are you ever be in a supermaramu or maramu?? the list is nice, let me remind you pls, watertight bulkheads, backup for engine furlers, superior hull construction compared wit beneteau , the engine room is super, the hard dodger to, tanks are big enough to cover big distances, and well deck to hull joint fiberglased , here is the extra cost compared with a beneteau..
Amels are made in one piece..i remember a article of Henri Amel saying that this boats can be pick up by the chainplates... worth the extra money ... If is a boat for old people i dont know, but the strenght and the quality is real and many can cover 200 miles in average in good conditions...



Lets leave long keeled heavy boats to the era of captain Bligh its time to see the real world. You don't need a oyster ( fin keel) or a Tayana ( Far East quality !) to do bluewater. Not all bluewater is ocean crossing most is island or coastal hopping , since most people want to go by sea to see land ! The traditional requirement of stacks of food has been overtaken by modern packaged foods and better land based stores. Read Dashew , look to modern designs etc.

The so called better quality boats are often only marginally better,( look at all the quality issues with Far East boats like Tayanas, or the osmosis issues with valiant 40s etc ) often under the hood the real advantages are minimal. Most of the money goes into high labour costs and manual procedures , higher cosmetic finishes and price positioning. Take a look at Morgan cars beautiful expensive hand crafted , I'd still take a Toyota across the dessert though !


Goshhhh in this point you dont know what you talking about seriously,,,
You put in the same bag oysters , beneteaus , HR, tayanas, bavarias etc...
what a mess...
Dave[/QUOTE]

best regards...
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Old 03-12-2012, 20:53   #770
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Bunk in my main cabin pulls out to a double berth or slides into become a single w/lee clothes. People are used to having a room in their house dedicated to sleeping (a bed room) which is the idea behind a V-berth...a nasty place to try and sleep in a heavy sea and space on a boat is too valuable to dedicate to such a short period of time.
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:09   #771
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Too much to comment with tablet at once but 80% bs Dave..
Island hopping looking for weather windows is not bluewater cruising IMHO.
Look at the size of those winches too.. Quality boats have adequately sized for all sheets. Thou with extra money you can get that too for any Bavaria among with many other things, but in the end of the day it wouldn't be anymore a production line Bavaria. Same goes with many other brands too...
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:19   #772
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Lets leave long keeled heavy boats to the era of captain Bligh
I don't mind aspiring to inclusion in such company. Capt. Bligh managed to get a 23' open boat, without any of the "essentials" listed in this thread, with 18 crew on survival rations from Tofua to Timor, 3,600 NM, in six weeks without losing a man. That's seamanship.
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:24   #773
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
I don't mind aspiring to inclusion in such company. Capt. Bligh managed to get a 23' open boat, without any of the "essentials" listed in this thread, with 18 crew on survival rations from Tofua to Timor, 3,600 NM, in six weeks without losing a man. That's seamanship.
Rather proves the point that it's the sailor, not the boat?

Or was that a "bluewater" longboat?
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:46   #774
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I remeber reading an article about heavy disp vs light disp boats for long range cruising....when you loaded them both with the food, water, fuel and other supplies necessary for a long passage the percentage of the boats design displacement was insignificant in a heavy displacement boat but the impact on a light displacement boat had the boat sitting so low in the water it defeated the advantage of a light disp boat. Example figuring on 1500lbs extra weight on a 15,000lb boat (heavy disp) is 10%, 11250lb (medium disp) is 15% , and a 7,500lb boat (light disp) is 20% when you start figuring the ultra light disp. boats it just doesn't work for passage making,
Thats exactly why I would go for increased waterline.
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Old 03-12-2012, 23:25   #775
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
In a modern sloop , without a inner forestay no way to rig a storm jib , and many new production boats come from factory like that, no inner forestay
Easy solutions
The storm jib for fulers : Storm Bag

ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:08   #776
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Bunk in my main cabin pulls out to a double berth or slides into become a single w/lee clothes. People are used to having a room in their house dedicated to sleeping (a bed room) which is the idea behind a V-berth...a nasty place to try and sleep in a heavy sea and space on a boat is too valuable to dedicate to such a short period of time.
My old boat was arranged like that.

But there's nothing wrong with having a "bedroom" on a boat. For comfort at sea, that "bedroom" should be aft, of course. But probably no one, not even circumnavigators, spend more nights at sea than on the hook or in port. So there's nothing really wrong with v-berths. And nothing at all wrong with having nice sleeping cabins on a boat -- a little private space. They're used for a lot of things besides just sleeping, and you can store sails there during the day
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:13   #777
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Those are better than nothing, but sub-optimal in my opinion. I'm with Neil Pride here -- an inner forestay is a very good thing to have on a boat used for more than just coastal sailing. Sails hoisted on an inner forestay have center of effort moved back and down -- you really want that in tough weather.

No one mentioned removeable inner forestays with Hyfield levers -- a good thing to have on a sloop.

Still, given the choice, I'll take a cutter any day (or a ketch). Gives you a lot of options when the wind gets up, which you simply don't have with a sloop.
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:38   #778
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
what a mess...
Indeed. Could you try to quote properly? It's not that hard really. The way you did I couldn't really figure out which parts were your rebuttals...

Code:
[/quote] to end a quote block
[quote] to start a block
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:44   #779
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Amels are made in one piece..i remember a article of Henri Amel saying that this boats can be pick up by the chainplates... worth the extra money ...
AFAIK Every sailboat can be picked up by the chainplates.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:12   #780
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
A large sleeping berth is the last thing you want at sea.
True, but it's very important at anchor. I am 6 foot 2. Many boat berths are fine for a couple of weeks, but spend several years sleeping on a small berth and you will understand its importance.

Our bed area has lee cloths, but at sea I always sleep on one of the settees. These have lee cloths, but in addition I am always on the downwind side anyway. The advantage of these is not so much they are narrower but your head ends up almost directly over the centre of roll.

While sea berths are important it's actually pretty rare to find a boat that does not have one reasonable sea berth. For a typical husband and wife crew one is all you need. Production boats will need a lee cloth fitted, but this is easily done.
In contrast, lots of cruising boats do not have a large enough berth to use, with long term comfort, at anchor where you will spend 90% of your time.
I know from discussions with other cruisers and the admiring comments that our large queen + sized bed receives, that I am not alone putting this high on my list of priorities.
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