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Old 01-12-2012, 17:35   #721
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Size gets batted around a lot in these threads, and so does the term "all else being equal," which it never is. It is ridiculous to compare a Contessa 32 to a Something 50--"all else" will never be equal. I think without a doubt there are small bluewater capable boats and also larger bluewater capable boats, and they often will be very different types of boats. I would argue that most smaller boats are simply too light, don't have enough strength, and probably are not bluewater capable. Larger boats tend to be built with larger ambitions in mind, so there are more to choose from in the bluewater category. We used to own a flush-decked, cold molded, British cutter, that I would consider extremely bluewater capable. I have owned eight cruising sailboats, and of them all she was probably the one I would want when the weather was bad, but she also wasn't the most comfortable boat around due to lack of headroom and size. However, in rough conditions she was unbelievable to sail. She would surf off downwind under complete control--felt like power steering with her huge skeg hung rudder and tiller steering. The first time we crossed the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas was in a strong norther and we were buzzed by Coast Guard helicopter because a much larger sailboat ahead of us had just sunk in the rough conditions and they were looking for the crew. Everyone else was huddling in No Name waiting for weather. Size can be good in a bluewater boat, but it isn't true that bigger is always better. Whatever else you believe about the Pardeys, they have demonstrated that small boats are very capable.
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Old 01-12-2012, 17:47   #722
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I do have the impression that the charter companies must be buying a lot of boats, as their fleets are usually relatively young. I don't see many Bavarias of less than 5 yo that are not charter boats...
Just look at the amount of former charter boats on the second hand market.

I have sailed there. It depends on where and when you sail, and what kind of sailing you do. Many charters in Turkey never venture further away than 20km of Fethihye... Most charter boats I saw last time I was in Croatia were motoring. Everyone wants to be in the bay before the moorings run out, so that means before 4PM...
And especially flotillas do sail from restaurant to restaurant. Their skippers are in cahoots with the locals.
I alway go bareboat. Preferably just with my partner. We plan our sails around the weather, to get good sailing. But I'm not typical.
The major production builders in Europe, build predominantly for the private owner market. Any chat with a manufacturers rep. Will demonstrate that. The vast majority of Europes marinas are filled with PO yachts. I. Just a fact. Production manufacturers build boats owners want to buy. They tend sell those models usually with some interior tweaks into the charter markets.

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Old 01-12-2012, 21:43   #723
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I would argue that most smaller boats are simply too light, don't have enough strength, and probably are not bluewater capable. Larger boats tend to be built with larger ambitions in mind, so there are more to choose from in the bluewater category. We used to own a flush-decked, cold molded, British cutter, that I would consider extremely bluewater capable.

Adventures of Salacia: Simple Sailor


Roger Taylor, thesimplesailor.com, seems to think otherwise. This sailor proves his 21ft boat will go anywhere because it does....so all this talk about needing this and that is all just based on personal needs not what's actually required to be a "bluewater" boat. This just shows what a good sailor is capable of, the boat is just not a big deal. A well maintained boat is all that is required in the hands of a good sailorGood reading about small boats and their capabilities on his website.
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Old 01-12-2012, 22:22   #724
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I would argue that most smaller boats are simply too light, don't have enough strength, and probably are not bluewater capable. Larger boats tend to be built with larger ambitions in mind, so there are more to choose from in the bluewater category. We used to own a flush-decked, cold molded, British cutter, that I would consider extremely bluewater capable.

Adventures of Salacia: Simple Sailor


Roger Taylor, thesimplesailor.com, seems to think otherwise. This sailor proves his 21ft boat will go anywhere because it does....so all this talk about needing this and that is all just based on personal needs not what's actually required to be a "bluewater" boat. This just shows what a good sailor is capable of, the boat is just not a big deal. A well maintained boat is all that is required in the hands of a good sailorGood reading about small boats and their capabilities on his website.
Aaaa...Nice attempt for Tinker Toy. But still not advisable, well maintained or otherwise.

Murphy threw him across the cabin and only broke his rib this time. Maybe next time he'll hit his head, snap out of it and realize BIGGER IS BETTER!

RT
PS Don't believe me, just ask your SO...
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Old 01-12-2012, 22:37   #725
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

[QUOTE=vtcapo;1098158]
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Aaaa...Nice attempt for Tinker Toy. But still not advisable, well maintained or otherwise.

Murphy threw him across the cabin and only broke his rib this time. Maybe next time he'll hit his head, snap out of it and realize BIGGER IS BETTER!

RT
PS Don't believe me, just ask your SO...

Just because you can't hang doesn't mean others can't....

Post what you will....the guy sails a 21ft "bluewater" boat. Proof it can be done. Just because you don't have what it takes doesn't mean it can't be done. THIS IS PROOF...see oldtimer I provide and support my claims unlike you who just makes blankets statement and need a big boat to talk about at the yatch club and dock....you know to compensate. good job!
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:45   #726
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The major production builders in Europe, build predominantly for the private owner market. Any chat with a manufacturers rep. Will demonstrate that. The vast majority of Europes marinas are filled with PO yachts. I. Just a fact. Production manufacturers build boats owners want to buy. They tend sell those models usually with some interior tweaks into the charter markets.
I'll have a few chats when I'm in Dusseldorf next year. However my impression is that many, if not most large Bavarias start their lives as charter yachts, and then later get sold second hand to private owners. A fifth of the Bavarias currently listed on Yachtworld are in Croatia...

It's basically an observation. The private yachts in general seem to be a lot older on average than the charter fleet.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:54   #727
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I believe Lin and Larry P. have argued the exact opposite. But, then what do they know?
Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I tremendously respect the Pardeys, but they have a lot of eccentric opinions - remember they also don't believe in engines! More power to 'em, but that approach to cruising is not for me personally.

I'll go with Dashew's approach - his 65' Sundeer is close to my ideal long range cruiser. Dashew also knows a bit about crossing oceans, I think you'll agree. Or a Holman & Pye designed 68' Oyster (yum). Or a Moody 66. Or in a pinch, my own boat
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:55   #728
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Murphy threw him across the cabin and only broke his rib this time. Maybe next time he'll hit his head, snap out of it and realize BIGGER IS BETTER!
Bigger is also more expensive. You've got a money tree somewhere?
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:09   #729
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Size gets batted around a lot in these threads, and so does the term "all else being equal," which it never is. It is ridiculous to compare a Contessa 32 to a Something 50--"all else" will never be equal. I think without a doubt there are small bluewater capable boats and also larger bluewater capable boats, and they often will be very different types of boats. I would argue that most smaller boats are simply too light, don't have enough strength, and probably are not bluewater capable. Larger boats tend to be built with larger ambitions in mind, so there are more to choose from in the bluewater category. We used to own a flush-decked, cold molded, British cutter, that I would consider extremely bluewater capable. I have owned eight cruising sailboats, and of them all she was probably the one I would want when the weather was bad, but she also wasn't the most comfortable boat around due to lack of headroom and size. However, in rough conditions she was unbelievable to sail. She would surf off downwind under complete control--felt like power steering with her huge skeg hung rudder and tiller steering. The first time we crossed the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas was in a strong norther and we were buzzed by Coast Guard helicopter because a much larger sailboat ahead of us had just sunk in the rough conditions and they were looking for the crew. Everyone else was huddling in No Name waiting for weather. Size can be good in a bluewater boat, but it isn't true that bigger is always better. Whatever else you believe about the Pardeys, they have demonstrated that small boats are very capable.
Well, all other things being equal, a bigger boat will be more seaworthy, faster, more stable, and more comfortable, than a smaller one. This is just an objective fact, and the difference is dramatic from 40' to 50' and from 50' to 60'. All things are of course not always equal, so I would rather be in a 40' Swan than a 50' Bavaria, for example, despite the inherent advantage of the Bav's size.

The only disadvantage of a big boat in terms of handling at sea is that if the cabin is not well designed and you can't hold on - I experienced this in a big Swan once - a big disadvantage, and dangerous.

None of this is to say you can't circumnavigate in a 21 footer - of course a good sailor in a sturdy 21 footer can go almost anywhere. The boat is only one factor, and not the deciding one - I thought we had all more or less agreed about that. When I spoke up for big boats, I was just stating my personal preference, in the spirit of the OP's original question, not saying you'll die in a small boat, or anything like that.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:13   #730
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Bigger is also more expensive. You've got a money tree somewhere?
Naturally. Not only to buy, but to repair, maintain, upgrade, and berth. And that's the limiting factor for nearly all of us. For example, that's the reason I don't sail an Oyster 68
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:34   #731
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

The lack of a money is one reason we bought a 40 footer. The other is that we will only be two people sailing it. A 40 footer can be handled fairly easily by two. A fifty footer is much more difficult.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:57   #732
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I went smaller, As I dont think I could have single handed any thing bigger than what I have, 34 foot, It also comes into what you can afford as well,

Bigger boats need crew to run them safely, I dont have crew or intend getting them,

I prefer the solitude, It also means I dont have to worry about any one else on board,
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:01   #733
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I think at times it is good to think of bluewater sailing ability vs. bluewater cruising ability ... (as per the OP).
I agree. So many spend all their time in thinking about all the things that can happen that in the end the boat they get may be a great boat for a storm etc., but is really a poor cruiser!

I wonder sometimes whether people are looking to be salty sailors looking for survival opportunities, or cruisers enjoying themselves.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:04   #734
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Look at Eric Hiscock,started out small and simple,suited him fine.But as he got older needs changed,more size and comfort items became the priority.So I would say age has an influence on what is bluewater.Then of course there are exceptions,Sven Yrvind for example.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:26   #735
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Bigger is also more expensive. You've got a money tree somewhere?
No, actually I'm boat poor.....If you know what I mean.

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