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Old 30-11-2012, 18:48   #706
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
This thread got me thinking of some better definitions. Here are a couple that work for me.

BLUE WATER [...]

BLUE WATER CAPABLE[...]
We might want to use the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations (link) when we discuss boat suitability. They define several categories of conditions and circumstances, with vessel requirements for each:
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-- Categories of Events -- In many types of race, ranging from trans-oceanic sailed under adverse conditions to short-course day races sailed in protected waters, seven categories are established, to provide for differences in the minimum standards of safety and accommodation required for such varying circumstances:
Category 0 Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.
Category 1 Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.
Category 2 Races of extended duration along or not far removed from shorelines or in large unprotected bays or lakes, where a high degree of self-sufficiency is required of the yachts.
Category 3 Races across open water, most of which is relatively protected or close to shorelines.
There are more categories for even more protected sailing, but 0 through 3 should be sufficient for our purposes. (For example, the Hawaii races I've participated in are Category 1.) The OSR's specify mandatory and recommended equipment, but they also pertain to the design and construction of the boat. We may or may not agree with a particular requirement, but I highly recommend that you study the OSRs. These have been developed in response to a whole lot of real-world experience, and contain much of value to racers and cruisers alike.
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Old 30-11-2012, 19:05   #707
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
............
we would like to circumnavigate NZ if qe find a weather window. Sailors I've talked to say 16 meter waves are not uncommon, which doesn't matter unless it is wind against current or the like.
hmmm .... I think they might be winding you up (exaggerating);
even 12m waves are not in any way common.

To see 16m waves on any regular basis you really have to dive south from NZ

However you are on the money about wind against current, that's definitely something to avoid.

The attached photo shows relatively benign conditions in Foveaux Strait during an exit from Fiordland to Stewart Island. The tide is running hard in the same direction as the wavetrain, making for wonderful sailing given that we were also travelling in that direction (fast across the ground)

The ruling wave height would be barely 7m, (the one in the photo is probably a bit bigger than the general run) but 6 hours after this photo was taken I reckon it would have been survival conditions with the tide running hard to the west against this same seaway.

You'll need more than one weather window to circumnavigate NZ, though, unless you truly are a masochist. Particularly on the west coasts. And lots of searoom on those sectors, unless you strike one of the rare instances where a strong westerly has virtually zero probability for say three days into the future.
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Old 30-11-2012, 19:12   #708
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Category 0 Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.
Category 1 Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.

This makes sense. Cat 0, and Cat 1, fit my thinking of an offshore cruiser, particularly the part ... and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:52   #709
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Sorry this is a load of nonsense, The charter industry in the Med, is tiny compared to owner boats.

Europe is the largest sailing market on the planet, yet the charter industry is tiny in boat numbers in comparison.
I do have the impression that the charter companies must be buying a lot of boats, as their fleets are usually relatively young. I don't see many Bavarias of less than 5 yo that are not charter boats...
Just look at the amount of former charter boats on the second hand market.
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And anyone who thinks the Med is easy, hasnt sailed there.
I have sailed there. It depends on where and when you sail, and what kind of sailing you do. Many charters in Turkey never venture further away than 20km of Fethihye... Most charter boats I saw last time I was in Croatia were motoring. Everyone wants to be in the bay before the moorings run out, so that means before 4PM...
And especially flotillas do sail from restaurant to restaurant. Their skippers are in cahoots with the locals.
I alway go bareboat. Preferably just with my partner. We plan our sails around the weather, to get good sailing. But I'm not typical.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:15   #710
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Well, while we are prudent sailors, we don't scare easily. Having said that, we'll only do the circumnavigation of NZ if it looks doable, without putting our lives and the boat at risk.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
hmmm .... I think they might be winding you up (exaggerating);
even 12m waves are not in any way common.

To see 16m waves on any regular basis you really have to dive south from NZ

However you are on the money about wind against current, that's definitely something to avoid.

The attached photo shows relatively benign conditions in Foveaux Strait during an exit from Fiordland to Stewart Island. The tide is running hard in the same direction as the wavetrain, making for wonderful sailing given that we were also travelling in that direction (fast across the ground)

The ruling wave height would be barely 7m, (the one in the photo is probably a bit bigger than the general run) but 6 hours after this photo was taken I reckon it would have been survival conditions with the tide running hard to the west against this same seaway.

You'll need more than one weather window to circumnavigate NZ, though, unless you truly are a masochist. Particularly on the west coasts. And lots of searoom on those sectors, unless you strike one of the rare instances where a strong westerly has virtually zero probability for say three days into the future.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:49   #711
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Wow, those are very exciting and unique. I didn't see any prices on the website. Any idea what the 1050 runs cost-wise?
Actually it's the 1060. My Typo :-)

They have a tool on their website that allows you to price the boats:

Configurateur d'options RM

They're not cheap, but for a semi-custom boat you can't expect Bavaria prices... The RM 1060 would fit in my budget though, and I've come to realise that trying to buy the biggest boat you can afford is not always a good idea. Maintenance, slip fees, etc need to factored in too.

Buying a new boat has its advantages, like being able to spec it exactly like you want. But before I would consider buying an RM1060 I want to rent one first for at least a week.
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:35   #712
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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This is something that few want to admit in these bluewater threads, that large boats tend to be better passage-makers than smaller boats. As far as I'm concerned one of the biggest safety issues offshore is crew fatigue. The more quickly and comfortably a boat can make a passage, the less it will fatigue its crew.

A few years back we sailed downhill to Half Moon Bay in a 15-foot swell, arriving there about a half hour prior to some friends in a Catalina 34. We visited for cocktails in the anchorage, and they reported that they'd been surfing the waves, and had decided to hand-steer for fear that the boat would broach if it caught a puff while accelerating. Meanwhile, in those exact same seas it had never occurred to us, in our 46-footer, to take over for the autopilot. We simply weren't having an adventure at that point, just a lovely outing.
Yes, all other things being equal, a larger boat is of course more seaworthy, stable, and comfortable than a smaller one. Faster, too. If you're going to sail in the open ocean in a 30' boat, then something like a Contessa does make some sense. But nowadays most cruising boats are over 40'.

For crossing oceans, especially if it's not an easy trade winds route, my ideal boat would be a fast 60 - 70 footer, with four decent sailors on board. That would really be fun, and low stress, and safe, with an easy watch schedule. A buddy of mine with a 90' Swan crossed the Pacific with many 300 mile days, and few under 200, and apparently they had a blast (oh, how I hated to turn down that invitation).

I guess that's another answer to "which blue water boat" - a big one.
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Old 01-12-2012, 15:42   #713
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, all other things being equal, a larger boat is of course more seaworthy, stable, and comfortable than a smaller one. Faster, too. If you're going to sail in the open ocean in a 30' boat, then something like a Contessa does make some sense. But nowadays most cruising boats are over 40'.

For crossing oceans, especially if it's not an easy trade winds route, my ideal boat would be a fast 60 - 70 footer, with four decent sailors on board. That would really be fun, and low stress, and safe, with an easy watch schedule. A buddy of mine with a 90' Swan crossed the Pacific with many 300 mile days, and few under 200, and apparently they had a blast (oh, how I hated to turn down that invitation).

I guess that's another answer to "which blue water boat" - a big one.
I believe Lin and Larry P. have argued the exact opposite. But, then what do they know?
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Old 01-12-2012, 15:56   #714
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I believe Lin and Larry P. have argued the exact opposite. But, then what do they know?
They have found out ONE way to cope with weather, good for them
But it's not the only truth..
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Old 01-12-2012, 15:56   #715
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Originally Posted by sneuman
I believe Lin and Larry P. have argued the exact opposite. But, then what do they know?
They also considered heads and auxiliary engines to be needless extravagances on a cruising boat. Such things took up too much space on their little boats.
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Old 01-12-2012, 15:57   #716
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I believe Lin and Larry P. have argued the exact opposite. But, then what do they know?
Well, IMO L&L have tons of experience in their own sort of boat, and this has lead to a somewhat myopic view of the remaining 90+% of the cruising world. PErsonally I have done long ocean passages in 30, 36 and 46 foot yachts. Comfort and apparent seaworthiness have increased with size for us.

And, FWIW and with no insult intended, they are both physically small folks. What is comfortable for them may be a bit cramped for larger specimens of the species.

Cheers,

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Old 01-12-2012, 16:08   #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPelican
It bears repeating that it's the sailor, not the boat, that needs to be "bluewater" capable. Offshore passagemaking can be done in anything that floats in the hands of a capable and prudent sailor. so it comes down to what OTHER criteria are important to you.


While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
What about bayfield 25/29? You think they can make the cut too for trade wind sailing?
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Old 01-12-2012, 16:22   #718
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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What about bayfield 25/29? You think they can make the cut too for trade wind sailing?
Well, it looks like James Baldwin has given his nod of approval for those two boats. See link below:

Atom Voyages - Good Old Boats List

I know this will upset some folks that always start whining when their boat isn't on a list. It seems some do not understand that everyone doesn't start out with or necessarily needs a 40+ footer. Some folks want to buy one boat that will take them anywhere and not have to worry about spending tons of money for that perfect speedy boat where the interior looks like their living room at home. Folks that look forward to having to be physically challenged at times which for any runner, weight lifter, sailboat racer,or cyclist out there can understand.
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Old 01-12-2012, 16:26   #719
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What about bayfield 25/29? You think they can make the cut too for trade wind sailing?
I don't think the 25 makes the cut. Drawing only 2'11" and with only 1450 lbs of ballast, I don't think it's right for offshore work. It's a heavy boat for such light ballast, which gives it a ballast/displacement ratio below what I'd want in big wind. Despite the salty look, I'd look somewhere else.
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Old 01-12-2012, 16:57   #720
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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What about bayfield 25/29? You think they can make the cut too for trade wind sailing?
It's on my list, along with the Westerly Centaur, Contessa 26 and Columbia 26/29 classics.

I had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with Lin and Larry Pardey in LA at one of their seminars back in the '80's. My cruising philosophy is much of a muchness with theirs with differences.

While I might be able to build, given enough time, my own Wharram cat; building anything like their Lyle Hess designs is way beyond my ability.

I'm ambivalent about inboard auxilliaries aboard boats under 30' feet. They're not really needed and can be needlessly difficult and expensive to maintain. I used to sail my 36' schooner with a bowsprit into my downwind slip at the back of Ventura Harbor marina, much to the pop-eyed, shouting, frantically gesticulating horror of my neighbors

Keeping maintenance, electrical needs, electronic gadgets and holes in the hull to a minimum is my idea of cruising with peace of mind.

If money is no object and cruising in comfort and luxury is important for you, by all means, get yourself a Deerfoot or whatever and enjoy
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