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Old 30-11-2012, 00:53   #676
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

If you utilize proper seamanship skills to begin with,you would know if the vessel was bluewater worthy or not.The boat won't get in trouble by itself,someone has to put it there.Although even the most well found boat can develop unforseen problems once at sea.
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Old 30-11-2012, 01:13   #677
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I sail every day at lat 55, 56, 57 58. My Jeanneau Sun Fast, a production boat with a fin keel and spade rudder does just fine. No holes in the fiberglass yet. Nor the gelcoat

jes' sayin'

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Old 30-11-2012, 03:43   #678
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I sail every day at lat 55, 56, 57 58. My Jeanneau Sun Fast, a production boat with a fin keel and spade rudder does just fine. No holes in the fiberglass yet. Nor the gelcoat

jes' sayin'

As others have noted, we are arguing about a matter of taste -- which is a fundamentally pointless argument, because no one will ever convince anyone else.

But whatever. So for whatever little it may be worth, I will comment on Carsten's boat, more about which you can read here: http://anciensbateaux.jeanneau.fr/in...03_MA_EN_D.pdf

Carsten's boat reminds me to say that production boats are not all identical to each other, not by a long shot.

My father's first boat was a Catalina 27, which he kept on a lake. Wow, what a nasty sailing device that was. I would not want to sail that in the ocean at all, much less somewhere out of sight of land. The rudder is tiny and probably mis-designed -- that boat is extremely tender, and will broach at the drop of a hat, and that's not even in the ocean.

How can anyone compare something like that, to something like Carsten's boat? Have a look at the underbody and keel: http://anciensbateaux.jeanneau.fr/inventaire/inventaire_2_20100604_986743_SF403_MA_EN_D.pdf

That's chalk and cheese. Carsten's boat has got 2 1/2 tons of ballast in a bulb at the bottom of a 2.1 meter (!) keel. It's a long, powerful, high aspect rudder. I have sailed on boats similar to Carsten's, and I would take it anywhere (short of the Southern Ocean, Cape Horn, or any place with bergy bits in the water, of course).

I've also sailed Contessas. It's purely a matter of taste, of course, and others will disagree, and that's fine with me. But -- for whatever it's worth -- I wouldn't hesitate for a second to choose Carsten's boat, over a Contessa, for an Atlantic Circuit involving two Atlantic crossings. Leaving aside entirely the question of comfort (although that's also very important if you're going to spend a year on a boat), Carsten's boat will make probably 1.5x the miles per day, and will provide a heap of fun while doing them. In tougher weather, you will be able to sail actively. If conditions get to survival levels -- extremely unlikely on that route, but still -- I would still rather be in the much bigger Jeanneau, which with its greater length, beam, and ballast ratio will be much harder to roll.

Negatives, for me, about Carsten's boat:

Hull liner (a shame, since Jeanneau only started using hull liners fairly recently; Jeanneaus were stick-built with robust stringers and Kevlar reinforcement until around 2000).

Iron rather than lead ballast.

Rather light weight for its size (but that's a plus where performance is concerned).

Plusses:

Extremely good sailing performance

Very good engineering (benefit of being built by the one company in the world which has the greatest engineering resources for designing ocean-going sailboats).

Very comfortable and functional interior layout


So you can't lump all "production boats" together -- they are extremely different from each other.

Now of course I would prefer to do that Atlantic circuit in my own boat . But given a choice between J 40.3 and Contessa, I wouldn't think for even a second. Contessa may be very seaworthy for its size, but remember it's a little bitty boat. It's salty and beautiful and has a wonderful heritage -- I would be very proud to own one. But it would not be my first or even third choice for long distance passage-making, if I could afford anything bigger and newer. But that's just my own personal taste, which I would not try to impose on anyone else.
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Old 30-11-2012, 04:22   #679
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

You are right about the differences, thou we can't compare 20k€ boat to with 200k€, that's nonsence.
Bigger is allways more seaworthy compared to smaller one other things kept about equal. There are things beneficial for big crew that never work for solo sailor and vice versa so we have to remember what works you isn't perfect for everyone.
What bothers me a lot with most newish production boats is their 'condolike' interior. Large spaces without proper hand holds and sharp corners waiting someone to break ones ribs or worse.. Never mind how good a boat sails or whatever, that alone diminish it to a pier queen..
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Old 30-11-2012, 04:46   #680
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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What bothers me a lot with most newish production boats is their 'condolike' interior. Large spaces without proper hand holds and sharp corners waiting someone to break ones ribs or worse.. Never mind how good a boat sails or whatever, that alone diminish it to a pier queen..
Well, the biggest market for those boats are charter companies. The typical bareboat charterer in the Med sails (mostly motors) from restaurant to restaurant. So all you really need are enough horizontal surfaces to stack bodies on. Hence 38 foot Bavarias with 4 cabins...

However there are some smaller yards, who build for serious cruisers, often with a lot of input by some very experienced people. Look at Allures, Boreal, RM or Ovni. And those boats have modern interiors too...
This is an example of a good looking interior that in my experience would work very well at sea... (This is a 35 foot fast cruiser)
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Old 30-11-2012, 05:01   #681
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Dockhead,

Thanks for the words about my boat. It has been bought specifically with an RTW in mind. A bit light, yes, but by the time we load it down for the RTW, we will have added an additional couple of tons - so there will be some extra weight.

Both of us do like to be comfortable - and Capri (boat name) has a fairly high level of comfort. Ours is the 2 cabin version, so we have a fair amount of storage space (never enough -. sigh). While I do acknowledge your critique, the only real disadvantage we found with her is that the traveler is in the middle of the cockpit.

We'll fit a targa bar for the RTW and the traveler will be moved to that, opening up the cockpit.

She is a VERY fast boat. But we don't expect to make more than about 6, 6.5 knots on average. Still, it's nice to know that if needed you can crack on lots of sail and get moving.

We have sailed her in force 8, with some gusts up into force 9. She behaved beautifully and steering, while taxing, was not exhausting. She is beautifully balanced.

So all in all, we feel we have a boat that will survive more than we will (let's hope we both get all the way round).

We paid usd 125 for her. She is a 2006 model and has been exceptionally well-cared for. In essence, she's brand new. We'll spend about usd 50 getting RTW ready.

Some will say that is an expensive RTW. But if you start looking for a boat you are going to live on for, say, 4 years, you'll be looking at 40+ feet. And then you'll end up with that kind of money. Yes you can buy something for less, and then spend a lot more getting it ready. 6 of one/half a dozen of another.

While we don't expect to go round the horn, we do expect to go round NZ, so we will find out if she likes the roaring forties


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Old 30-11-2012, 05:53   #682
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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post

Well, the biggest market for those boats are charter companies. The typical bareboat charterer in the Med sails (mostly motors) from restaurant to restaurant. So all you really need are enough horizontal surfaces to stack bodies on. Hence 38 foot Bavarias with 4 cabins...

However there are some smaller yards, who build for serious cruisers, often with a lot of input by some very experienced people. Look at Allures, Boreal, RM or Ovni. And those boats have modern interiors too...
This is an example of a good looking interior that in my experience would work very well at sea... (This is a 35 foot fast cruiser)
Not many handholds but it sure looks nice! What is it?
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Old 30-11-2012, 06:17   #683
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Not many handholds but it sure looks nice! What is it?
Handholds?! I don't need no stinking handholds! This would be my seaberth if I sail RTW. Luxury suite on Holland America starting at 90K, a fraction of the price of a big cat.



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Old 30-11-2012, 06:20   #684
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Handholds?! I don't need no stinking handholds! This would my seaberth if I sail RTW. Luxury suite on Holland America starting at 90K, a fraction of the price of a big cat.



Now we're talking! That's my idea of BW cruising capability.
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Old 30-11-2012, 06:51   #685
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Not many handholds but it sure looks nice! What is it?
It's an RM. very unique boats expoxy plywood with a metal frame taking the rigging loads. Bilge keels, but deep high aspect not the usual offering.

The French produce some very different boats and cruise, long distance, in many diverse sort of craft.
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Old 30-11-2012, 07:04   #686
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Not many handholds but it sure looks nice! What is it?
There are two big handholds running the length of the table, and you can grab the kitchen or chart table. The cabin looks bigger because of the wide angle lens. You can easily brace yourself in the kitchen or chart table. Since these boats are semi-custom you can have more handholds if you want.

This is the RM 1050. A fast seaworthy cruiser. One of them was sold to a sailor who wants to do a circuit of the Americas...
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Old 30-11-2012, 08:12   #687
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Has anyone on here sailed a Catalina offshore or on extended blue water cruises? Or does anyone know Catalina's capability to sail across oceans? Because I've seen some comments on CF saying they cant
A Catalina 27 has circumnavigated. The boat was Juggernaut and the driver was Patrick Childress. (but he made some structural modifications) He did the trip a second time but in a Valiant 40.
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Old 30-11-2012, 09:09   #688
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Well, the biggest market for those boats are charter companies. The typical bareboat charterer in the Med sails (mostly motors) from restaurant to restaurant. So all you really need are enough horizontal surfaces to stack bodies on. Hence 38 foot Bavarias with 4 cabins...
Sorry this is a load of nonsense, The charter industry in the Med, is tiny compared to owner boats. Europe is the largest sailing market on the planet, yet the charter industry is tiny in boat numbers in comparison.

And anyone who thinks the Med is easy, hasnt sailed there.

Dave
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Old 30-11-2012, 09:18   #689
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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......
While we don't expect to go round the horn, we do expect to go round NZ, so we will find out if she likes the roaring forties
I haven't sailed around the southern tip, but I have spent some time at Invercargill - the frequently wild weather could make the beach unapproachable for weeks (the wind would whip up the sand mercilessly).
Is it Doubtful and Milford Sounds on the SW side that are the drawcards? Or just sheer Danish determination ?
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Old 30-11-2012, 09:21   #690
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It's an RM. very unique boats expoxy plywood with a metal frame taking the rigging loads. Bilge keels, but deep high aspect not the usual offering.

The French produce some very different boats and cruise, long distance, in many diverse sort of craft.
I have seen those boats on the hard in Cherbourg - they are absolutely bizarre. You really have to hand it to the French - their imagination in boat design runs wild, completely unhindered by any of our prejudices.

I think extremely high aspect BILGE keels is absolutely brilliant. Such a paradoxical, but really right idea. For the English Channel - where these boats were born and bred, and where they are intended to be used - with our huge tides and vast drying foreshores - this is just the thing.
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