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Old 27-11-2012, 04:38   #556
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
...Nothing wrong with identifying your needs in a crew Blue Crab. I must say having needs met contributes a huge amount to blue water suitability of the boat/team combination .
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As usual, SL has taken a longer look at things than many of us ...
And as they say, any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

Another thing I can attest to, whether RTWing, coastal cruising or even daysailing is that aplombs are delicious right off the vine and store well, whereas crabapples need work.

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Old 27-11-2012, 10:02   #557
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

It bears repeating that it's the sailor, not the boat, that needs to be "bluewater" capable. Offshore passagemaking can be done in anything that floats in the hands of a capable and prudent sailor. so it comes down to what OTHER criteria are important to you.

Surviving a pitchpole event is not even a consideration. There are exactly zero boats that can be pitchpoled without being significantly damaged and immediately put in a life or death fight for survival.

I have owned, lived aboard and cruised the Southern California coast and Channel Islands in a 26' Piver trimaran, a 30' Catalina and a 36' ferrocement Josepsch schooner. I loved them all and would not hesitate to take any of them across an ocean under the proper circumstances. I wouldn't attempt the Horn in the Piver or the Catalina but I might in the schooner. On the other hand, tradewind sailing and poking around shallow coral lagoons would be more fun in the trimaran than in the schooner. Beating off a lee shore in the Catalina would be less terrifying than in either of the other two. Pick your compromises and know your limitations.

I'm 64 now and retired on a small but adequate fixed income. My criteria are much different now than they were 30 years ago. My next boat may have to last the rest of my life and be capable of doing anything I feel up to attempting. She must be inexpensive to buy, and therefore inexpensive to replace should I lose her. Keeping costs down and maintenance easy means she will be fiberglass, a masthead sloop or cutter and between 25' and 30'. She must be capable of looking after herself in heavy weather which eliminates fin keels and spade rudders since they must be kept moving and require constant attention to the helm under those conditions. Knockdown or rollover protection is a simple matter of modest beam and heavy displacement with the ballast low in the keel. shallow draft is preferred.

While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:13   #558
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
It bears repeating that it's the sailor, not the boat, that needs to be "bluewater" capable. Offshore passagemaking can be done in anything that floats in the hands of a capable and prudent sailor. so it comes down to what OTHER criteria are important to you.

Surviving a pitchpole event is not even a consideration. There are exactly zero boats that can be pitchpoled without being significantly damaged and immediately put in a life or death fight for survival.

I have owned, lived aboard and cruised the Southern California coast and Channel Islands in a 26' Piver trimaran, a 30' Catalina and a 36' ferrocement Josepsch schooner. I loved them all and would not hesitate to take any of them across an ocean under the proper circumstances. I wouldn't attempt the Horn in the Piver or the Catalina but I might in the schooner. On the other hand, tradewind sailing and poking around shallow coral lagoons would be more fun in the trimaran than in the schooner. Beating off a lee shore in the Catalina would be less terrifying than in either of the other two. Pick your compromises and know your limitations.

I'm 64 now and retired on a small but adequate fixed income. My criteria are much different now than they were 30 years ago. My next boat may have to last the rest of my life and be capable of doing anything I feel up to attempting. She must be inexpensive to buy, and therefore inexpensive to replace should I lose her. Keeping costs down and maintenance easy means she will be fiberglass, a masthead sloop or cutter and between 25' and 30'. She must be capable of looking after herself in heavy weather which eliminates fin keels and spade rudders since they must be kept moving and require constant attention to the helm under those conditions. Knockdown or rollover protection is a simple matter of modest beam and heavy displacement with the ballast low in the keel. shallow draft is preferred.

While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
Good post! The most important thing is the sailor. However, there are boats whose keels fall off, rudders too.... I would call those not bluewater boats.
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:21   #559
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I am finding the general bleating of what CF folks consider 'blue water capability/suitability' really entertaining. Until contributors have spent weeks or months at sea in all conditions, I'm not certain their representations are all that valuable, but fun to read.
Having grown up commercial fishing and towing barges off the west coast off Vancouver and the Queen Charlotte Islands aboard vessels that were collectively thought not to be all that seaworthy, I am puzzled that offshore suitability must be of a certain hull construction, rig must be of a specific design, propulsion must be of a certain capacity, life saving gear must meet certain specifications, etc., etc. We went to sea without a thought to those issues, but the crew's ability to work under adverse conditions for weeks on end was a primary consideration.
Old Pelican hit the nail on the head when he stated that...'it's the sailor, not the boat'... that determines vessel capability. Phil
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:29   #560
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I agree with you to a large extent, but not sure I would tout the Fishing Industry as an example of safety at sea.
"Fishing is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. The International
Labor Organization (ILO) and Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO)
estimate that seven percent of all worker fatalities occur in the fishing industry,
despite the industry accounting for less than one percent of the worldwide
workforce...."
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:49   #561
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Are you no longer taking data? Said I got the monohull question wrong when I answered one.....
Yes please. I changed the monohull question answer field to a drop down menu to make the answer clearer. Select "1".
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:03   #562
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Wow, I had no idea the fatality rate was so high, Cheechako! We always knew it was a little on the dangerous side but relished in the adventure, the friendships (borne out of relying on each other) and the freedom of living a life outside the mainstream of society. In those days, it was only the really wealthy, established fisherman who even had a liferaft!
Fishing for herring in the winter we all knew that if you went overboard, you were dead by the time they could turn the boat around and pick you up if you were lucky enough to have someone see you go over the side. When we were seining we would have a power skiff in the water that could pick you up if the sea wasn't running too high but I heard of several guys being lost in the cold water. Given those statistics, the fishing industry doesn't seem like one of the safer ways to make a living but I was only aboard one boat where we had a fatality. Losing fingers was pretty common, though.
Cruising is entirely different than working on the water, particularly because you can choose when to leave port. When you have a tow or the days were open for fishing, you went regardless of weather.
Strange, I still miss those days... mind you, it was back in the 50's and 60's. Phil
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:41   #563
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Originally Posted by rsneek928

I've been looking for about 8-10 months now. And lucky(unfortunately) I'm still realistically a couple years away from purchasing, cause I'm so far from decided on what I want, but I'm getting closer.

Here's another generalization or two (you all seem to like them so much), ok observations I've made so far.

It seems like the North American builders tend to be hanging on to traditional designs, materials and construction methods where as the European builders seem much more open to new design concepts, alternate materials and fabrication methods. Why the resistance to change? We know how well that worked for the N.A. automakers. :-)

It also seems to me that the European builders have a huge edge in middle of the market boats, the ones above the mass production boats but not at the quality of the really high end semi or fully custom builders.

I'll admit it, if I was purchasing in the next few weeks, probably 9 of 10 on my short list to look at would be european boats.

Correct me if I'm wrong, enlighten me if you're able. I'm a newb looking to learn, but I'm old(ish) and stubborn, and likely to fight kicking and screaming all the way (just ask the poor bastard trying to teach me radar plotting).
Partly this is market driven, the NA sailboat market is quite small compared to the European one, The reverse is true in NA for say sportboats where here NA dominates the field. Secondly the US sailboat market is probably older retirees , especially given the leisure time in the US available to 30-50 year olds. Coupled with the distance to water for many Americans. Etc.

Hence European boat builder are playing in the worlds largest sailboat market, which a wide variety of user demands and requirements. Younger people want speed , fun and an interior that's looks like there home. ( ie Euro lines ) the US sailor is older and more traditional.

US sailboat companies have struggled to capture any significant marketspace in Europe. The French in particular are proponents of go faster boats and sailing is virtually the national sport. Hence this informs designer and builders.

It's worth noting that traditional US builders ha e struggled to stay afloat with a number of high profile failures. It worth noting that even in the teeth of a very nasty recession the vast majority of European builders are surviving. Most business failures are in the power boat area

I think European builders have a huge edge in both production boats and high( er) quality boats as well. Equally there are European rivals to Hinckly & Morris too as well. ( rustler, discovery, fantasi, etc )

Dave
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Old 27-11-2012, 12:00   #564
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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass
.......

I noticed no one has mentioned the AVS (and characteristics of the stability graph) as a factor in determining a boat's suitability for blue water. Its a vital consideration in determining seaworthiness.

Our thought process in selection a "blue water suitable" boat was searching for the following (listed roughly in order of importance, but all vital for us):
- Monohull
- Aluminium
- high AVS and the region of positive stability by far outweighing the region of negative stability
- Over specified strength (mast, rigging, watertight bulkheads etc)
- Not a slow boat
- Excellent condition (we did not want to be spending months/years refurbishing before setting off, listed last simply because it is the only thing on the list that is modifiable)

......
Lets look at these criteria from another perspective

Monohull , ( or cat) fairly irrelevant as to bluewater cred. Mostly personal preference

Aluminium. Can be a very troublesome material and good boats in it can be very expensive , few production manufacturer, all virtually French. GRP is arguably better all round material. Easily fixed anywhere , aluminium requires specialist skills

High AVS, well there goes the French aluminium boats , the Ovni has an AVS of 110 , really poor, but its regarded as the land rover of the sea!! High AVS can produce very uncomfortable snap rolling and other undesirable effects. There are arguments for AVSs in the 120 to 140 range.( which most boats have) But again AVS is calculated statically and does not take into account the righting affect of the above deck cabin body. AVS is a poor indicator, and a poor metric ( note buy the Moody deck saloon 45ds, no negative portion of the curve!)

Over Specified Strength. , how do you know what's strong, yet what's right for the boat , over strong is a waste of money Like watertight bulkheads, firstly that excludes about 95% of typical leisure boats, secondly , as was explained to me ,if most design made the bulkheads watertight , the boat actually cannot stay afloat with one of the areas filled. , hence they provide little additional safety

Not a slow boat, well with all the above maybe maybe not , no one wants a slow boat, or an ugly.... Car.


This is why " bluewater " criteria listing is essentially nonsense. Most boats are more then adaquate , more then safe " enough " and more then strong " enough" to do the task. The rest is user viewpoints and personal opinion ( and seemingly national characteristics !!) the boat is bluewater ,most the skipper that often isn't.
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:59   #565
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
It bears repeating that it's the sailor, not the boat, that needs to be "bluewater" capable. Offshore passagemaking can be done in anything that floats in the hands of a capable and prudent sailor. so it comes down to what OTHER criteria are important to you.

Surviving a pitchpole event is not even a consideration. There are exactly zero boats that can be pitchpoled without being significantly damaged and immediately put in a life or death fight for survival.

I have owned, lived aboard and cruised the Southern California coast and Channel Islands in a 26' Piver trimaran, a 30' Catalina and a 36' ferrocement Josepsch schooner. I loved them all and would not hesitate to take any of them across an ocean under the proper circumstances. I wouldn't attempt the Horn in the Piver or the Catalina but I might in the schooner. On the other hand, tradewind sailing and poking around shallow coral lagoons would be more fun in the trimaran than in the schooner. Beating off a lee shore in the Catalina would be less terrifying than in either of the other two. Pick your compromises and know your limitations.

I'm 64 now and retired on a small but adequate fixed income. My criteria are much different now than they were 30 years ago. My next boat may have to last the rest of my life and be capable of doing anything I feel up to attempting. She must be inexpensive to buy, and therefore inexpensive to replace should I lose her. Keeping costs down and maintenance easy means she will be fiberglass, a masthead sloop or cutter and between 25' and 30'. She must be capable of looking after herself in heavy weather which eliminates fin keels and spade rudders since they must be kept moving and require constant attention to the helm under those conditions. Knockdown or rollover protection is a simple matter of modest beam and heavy displacement with the ballast low in the keel. shallow draft is preferred.

While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
Hey Pelican,

S/F.

What do you think about a Cape Dory 30?

Tom
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Old 27-11-2012, 17:14   #566
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
Welcome Old Pelican,
Your list looks a lot like mine when I was looking for my first boat. I was almost going to look at a Cape Dory 27 but I got a Nor'sea instead. I haven't sailed it yet but I am enjoying the time getting it ready.
Good luck in your search.
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Old 27-11-2012, 17:17   #567
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Partly this is market driven, the NA sailboat market is quite small compared to the European one,
A lot of people don't realize just how small the larger sailboat market is in the USA--don't have the numbers at my fingertips, but I believe it is well less than 2000 new boats larger than 30 feet per year. A lot of manufacturers make one or two boats a year. The big ones make 50-100. It is a tiny industry here. It may still be true, but a few years back there were more large sailboats owned by New Zealanders (population 4.4 million) than owned in the USA.
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Old 27-11-2012, 17:30   #568
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Originally Posted by Kettlewell

A lot of people don't realize just how small the larger sailboat market is in the USA--don't have the numbers at my fingertips, but I believe it is well less than 2000 new boats larger than 30 feet per year. A lot of manufacturers make one or two boats a year. The big ones make 50-100. It is a tiny industry here. It may still be true, but a few years back there were more large sailboats owned by New Zealanders (population 4.4 million) than owned in the USA.
It's quite true , Norwegians top the list with NZ second ( from memory). The US has a huge portsboat/day boat/fishing boat market but a small keelboat one

Dave
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Old 27-11-2012, 18:17   #569
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
It bears repeating that it's the sailor, not the boat, that needs to be "bluewater" capable. Offshore passagemaking can be done in anything that floats in the hands of a capable and prudent sailor. so it comes down to what OTHER criteria are important to you.

Surviving a pitchpole event is not even a consideration. There are exactly zero boats that can be pitchpoled without being significantly damaged and immediately put in a life or death fight for survival.

I have owned, lived aboard and cruised the Southern California coast and Channel Islands in a 26' Piver trimaran, a 30' Catalina and a 36' ferrocement Josepsch schooner. I loved them all and would not hesitate to take any of them across an ocean under the proper circumstances. I wouldn't attempt the Horn in the Piver or the Catalina but I might in the schooner. On the other hand, tradewind sailing and poking around shallow coral lagoons would be more fun in the trimaran than in the schooner. Beating off a lee shore in the Catalina would be less terrifying than in either of the other two. Pick your compromises and know your limitations.

I'm 64 now and retired on a small but adequate fixed income. My criteria are much different now than they were 30 years ago. My next boat may have to last the rest of my life and be capable of doing anything I feel up to attempting. She must be inexpensive to buy, and therefore inexpensive to replace should I lose her. Keeping costs down and maintenance easy means she will be fiberglass, a masthead sloop or cutter and between 25' and 30'. She must be capable of looking after herself in heavy weather which eliminates fin keels and spade rudders since they must be kept moving and require constant attention to the helm under those conditions. Knockdown or rollover protection is a simple matter of modest beam and heavy displacement with the ballast low in the keel. shallow draft is preferred.

While many boats fit my criteria, I've narrowed it down to a Carl Alberg design built in the '60's or '70's as the best combination of all the traits I find desirable. Cape Dory 25D, Pearson Triton 28, Bristol 27, Alberg 30 are all boats on my short list
Since "offshore passaging can be made in anything that floats" which of the following three BLUEWATER boats (choke) would you suggest I take.

Reinell 26
McGregor 26
Bayliner Buccaneer 27

I just received my IRS tax settlement. I'm feeling suicidal and my Slocum may have to go.... Help!

RT
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Old 27-11-2012, 18:41   #570
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Since "offshore passaging can be made in anything that floats" which of the following three BLUEWATER boats (choke) would you suggest I take.

Reinell 26
McGregor 26
Bayliner Buccaneer 27

I just received my IRS tax settlement. I'm feeling suicidal and my Slocum may have to go.... Help!

RT
This post is just another feeble attempt to draw attention. Your post has nothing to due with the topic or his post, so why quote it? He has narrowed down choices that suite him. I bet he prolly has enough experience to sail an Oday Daysailor where ever he wants, but he has clearly pointed out what he likes in his last paraghaph. you on the other hand need a big strong "overbuilt" boat to make up sor your lack of sailing experience. Thats fine, it's ok. A lot people have to compensate for a lot different reasons. Your's is clear, lack of sailing experience

you sure you dont want to spend that tax money on another layer of fiberglass on your boat...then it will be over overbuilt, giving you even more security at the doc...... i mean sea.

back to drinking cookies and milk
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