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Old 26-11-2012, 07:42   #541
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I had no idea. Is the market super depressed like it is in the US? I'm thinking upgrade size-wise. There's an Ericson 27 I'm considering locally. Cheap, with diesel. It's 7000 disp compared to my boat's 4000. Of course, with the same PHRF rating, it's gotta be a dog like a WetSnail or a Slocum. I don't think I can live with that despite the extra storage room.
Guess I'd better put armchair on AP and get googling. I might be up for a "milk run" from Europe.
You'll have a better choice in Europe, but as far as I can tell, the prices are higher, even for European-made boats. The European economy is pretty poor, but there's no "buyers' market", as far as I can tell.

Of course, getting to do a pleasant trade winds transat may be reason enough to buy your next boat in Europe.
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Old 26-11-2012, 08:08   #542
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I can't see why a US person would buy a boat in the EU.

I think EU boats are grossly overpriced except for the few less popular or older ones.

b.
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Old 26-11-2012, 08:26   #543
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Tayana didn't build that many boats.

Dave
Love these generalisations ....

1) Good luck arguing with Robert Perry - who says its true

2) Tayana have produced more than 1500 boats - almost all of which are still out there cruising
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Old 26-11-2012, 09:09   #544
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Well to add some weight to the production boat argument, if you look at the entry list for this years ARC, the majority of boats are fin keel, spade rudder production boats, x-yacht, beneteau, jeanneau, gibsea, moody, dufour, bavaria!, etc etc etc. I looked and counted 4 halberg raaey, 2(two) tatyana.

So production boats are blue water, unless you want to contend that the entire fleet will be in davy jones locker before they end up in the carribean.
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Old 26-11-2012, 09:26   #545
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You'll have a better choice in Europe, but as far as I can tell, the prices are higher, even for European-made boats. The European economy is pretty poor, but there's no "buyers' market", as far as I can tell.

Of course, getting to do a pleasant trade winds transat may be reason enough to buy your next boat in Europe.
Yes indeed. And thanks for the link. Hopefully, I'll win the big lotto at $425 million on Wed. If so, I'll change my thinking a little to a big fast cat. Just for the fun possibilites. I've thought about the crew more than the boat actually. It's a cat so I'll need my own:
  • veterinarian. Please advise if you all know of a likely candidate. An aviator would be a plus.
  • a really handy person with tools. Prefer female with a sunny attitude and nice butt. Maybe with that cute Brit accent.
  • a bleeding heart liberal female (obviously has to be from SF bay area) who's good on the computer and can spell.
  • a really cool normal/leanish gal who can cook a little. Gourmet ability not required.
All crew would be paid lavishly to stand watches, and comply with a minimal undress code. While shoes don't weigh much, these crew members would be limited on # they can bring aboard and high heels could only be worn on domestic "watches" below. Yes, there would be a few ... ah ... domestic duties req'd but on a rotating basis. Married women ok with me. No hubbies of course. Please post potential CVs in this Blue water thread for all to see so envious other CFers can offer opinions and advice. Here's the kinda boat I'm thinking of:

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Old 26-11-2012, 10:38   #546
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Yes. This sort of profile is seaworthy, but rare.
Ooo, lovely. What is it? Similar to what I have in mind. Flatten the decks to flush, put the cockpit with fwd coaming amidships and hard windshield dodgers fore & aft and a narrow centreline solar panel array between, move the mainmast to around station 2 and pop in another the same around station 6, add two ginormous chinese lugsails and a storm staysail between for really lumpy weather, and you may have a pic of the micaboat!
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Old 26-11-2012, 14:43   #547
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

The coments about a good skipper being 90% of the blue water capability

Would a good skipper set sail in bad weather with a sub standard boat and no skilled crew?

Exempting of course Bligh etc. when there was no option.

But a bad skipper can sail in boats that are or are NOT capable at the wrong time alowing murphy little to do to cause a right Muck up.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:30   #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlisle Spirit

Love these generalisations ....

1) Good luck arguing with Robert Perry - who says its true

2) Tayana have produced more than 1500 boats - almost all of which are still out there cruising
1500, I think madam beneteau produced that many last weekend. !!!!

Dave
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:35   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel
I can't see why a US person would buy a boat in the EU.

I think EU boats are grossly overpriced except for the few less popular or older ones.

b.
For new boats that's not true, a foreigner can buy one vat free. Pricing is about the same both sides of the Atlantic. In m experience European boats bought in the US are quite expensive.

The big advantage of the European sailboat is the huge variety of boats. There are at least 30 active builders and 6-8 mega ones.

Second hand. Th market in Europe is very very large, significantly larger then the US ( for sail boats only ) hence pricing tends to stay higher. ( more liquidity) recession hadn't hit pricing to any great extent. A few fire sales yes, but tats about it.

Dave
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Old 26-11-2012, 18:51   #550
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Yes she is. Yes I said that. But never seen one with that proper-looking sail and rig plan. All seem to be cut down to tiny sails. They chop the boom, raise it up, and wonder why it sails like a pig. And who would be enough of a real sailor to have running backstays?
My boom was cut from 18' to 15' and raised up, but she doesn't sail like a pig as she can now carry more sail forward of the mast *as cutter rig) .....actually a bit more sail area than the original design with the center of effort further forward balancing it out better (also points better(
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Old 26-11-2012, 21:02   #551
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
For new boats that's not true, a foreigner can buy one vat free. Pricing is about the same both sides of the Atlantic. In m experience European boats bought in the US are quite expensive.

The big advantage of the European sailboat is the huge variety of boats. There are at least 30 active builders and 6-8 mega ones.

Second hand. Th market in Europe is very very large, significantly larger then the US ( for sail boats only ) hence pricing tends to stay higher. ( more liquidity) recession hadn't hit pricing to any great extent. A few fire sales yes, but tats about it.

Dave
I've been looking for about 8-10 months now. And lucky(unfortunately) I'm still realistically a couple years away from purchasing, cause I'm so far from decided on what I want, but I'm getting closer.

Here's another generalization or two (you all seem to like them so much), ok observations I've made so far.

It seems like the North American builders tend to be hanging on to traditional designs, materials and construction methods where as the European builders seem much more open to new design concepts, alternate materials and fabrication methods. Why the resistance to change? We know how well that worked for the N.A. automakers. :-)

It also seems to me that the European builders have a huge edge in middle of the market boats, the ones above the mass production boats but not at the quality of the really high end semi or fully custom builders.

I'll admit it, if I was purchasing in the next few weeks, probably 9 of 10 on my short list to look at would be european boats.

Correct me if I'm wrong, enlighten me if you're able. I'm a newb looking to learn, but I'm old(ish) and stubborn, and likely to fight kicking and screaming all the way (just ask the poor bastard trying to teach me radar plotting).
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Old 26-11-2012, 21:07   #552
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by rsneek928 View Post
I've been looking for about 8-10 months now. And lucky(unfortunately) I'm still realistically a couple years away from purchasing, cause I'm so far from decided on what I want, but I'm getting closer.

Here's another generalization or two (you all seem to like them so much), ok observations I've made so far.

It seems like the North American builders tend to be hanging on to traditional designs, materials and construction methods where as the European builders seem much more open to new design concepts, alternate materials and fabrication methods. Why the resistance to change? We know how well that worked for the N.A. automakers. :-)

It also seems to me that the European builders have a huge edge in middle of the market boats, the ones above the mass production boats but not at the quality of the really high end semi or fully custom builders.

I'll admit it, if I was purchasing in the next few weeks, probably 9 of 10 on my short list to look at would be european boats.

Correct me if I'm wrong, enlighten me if you're able. I'm a newb looking to learn, but I'm old(ish) and stubborn, and likely to fight kicking and screaming all the way (just ask the poor bastard trying to teach me radar plotting).
I would say your research is on track and heading you in the right direction.
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Old 26-11-2012, 22:53   #553
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

WOW, over 550 posts on the subject!! And so hotly debated at times.

Firstly, blue water capability and suitability are not necessarily the same thing (as proven over and over, lots of boats including near bath sized ones are "capable" in the right conditions and in the right hands).

I noticed no one has mentioned the AVS (and characteristics of the stability graph) as a factor in determining a boat's suitability for blue water. Its a vital consideration in determining seaworthiness.

Our thought process in selection a "blue water suitable" boat was searching for the following (listed roughly in order of importance, but all vital for us):
- Monohull
- Aluminium
- high AVS and the region of positive stability by far outweighing the region of negative stability
- Over specified strength (mast, rigging, watertight bulkheads etc)
- Not a slow boat
- Excellent condition (we did not want to be spending months/years refurbishing before setting off, listed last simply because it is the only thing on the list that is modifiable)

Before I get crucified, let me say that BW suitability is not an absolute, but a sliding scale. But who can deny that in extreme conditions a monohull is preferable? Or despite the fact that building material has barely been touched on in this thread, that metal is not the best choice when it comes to strength (both in bad conditions and with collisions)? Or that good righting capability is not preferable? Or that speed will not help you avoid bad weather? Or that a boat in good condition is going to fare better than one poorly maintained?

The skill and experience and conservative attitude (all different things) of those handling the boat is of course vital as well, but whether the importance compared to boat suitability is 50/50 or 30/70 or 70/30 is all a bit immaterial, so lets not argue about that. I am sure we all agree it us not 99/1 or 1/99.
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Old 27-11-2012, 01:33   #554
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

As usual SL, has taken a longer look at things than many of us, and she's out there doing it on a boat we'd all call bluewater capable.

Following the link above, I have begun to appreciate the more active sailboat situation in the EU. I'd never even heard of most of the boats I perused. Thanks for opening my eyes. Maybe a European adventure is ahead.

An experienced CFer noted in another thread about the silliness of how we besmirch other boat brands. He's correct and I've done it. Of course I'd love to own a WestSail to live and cruise on. Even the 28'er has more ballast than my boat displaces. I'd never heard "Fatalina" but I'll not be using the term. Slo(w)cum? Yes, please.

Besides, if I could pick a real dreamboat it would be a cat. I would not need to overload it being just one guy now (my ancient dog hated the water anyway). Much as I'd like to sail Orange, the big cat above, I couldn't begin to maintain it. Same goes for my grossly inappropriate discussion of potential crew, above. Regrets. Of age and wisdom, only one is fairly certain.

Bluewater Capability? A sister boat to my Swan (ish) much-modified Cal 25 has gone RTW. A couple and two kids! I guess it has enough room for one old, not-often blue crab and some dive gear. And a bicycle. 6 fishing rigs ... we all know the drill.
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Old 27-11-2012, 02:14   #555
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Its not just blue water suitability that govern the choice of boat. Funds, cost and ease of refurbishment/maintenance, what can be handled with available crew, comfort/pleasure at anchor, fun or ease of handling, looks, ease of availability, cost of marina berth and limitations of what your marina will take, what your SO wants etc may all play a part in the selection process. Some of these issues have been clouding the boat selection question when it comes to blue water suitability and we seem to be going around in circles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I've thought about the crew more than the boat actually. It's a cat so I'll need my own:
  • veterinarian. Please advise if you all know of a likely candidate. An aviator would be a plus.
  • a really handy person with tools. Prefer female with a sunny attitude and nice butt. Maybe with that cute Brit accent.
  • a bleeding heart liberal female (obviously has to be from SF bay area) who's good on the computer and can spell.
  • a really cool normal/leanish gal who can cook a little. Gourmet ability not required.
All crew would be paid lavishly to stand watches, and comply with a minimal undress code. While shoes don't weigh much, these crew members would be limited on # they can bring aboard and high heels could only be worn on domestic "watches" below. Yes, there would be a few ... ah ... domestic duties req'd but on a rotating basis. Married women ok with me. No hubbies of course. Please post potential CVs in this Blue water thread for all to see so envious other CFers can offer opinions and advice.
......
Nothing wrong with identifying your needs in a crew Blue Crab. I must say having needs met contributes a huge amount to blue water suitability of the boat/team combination .
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