Bluewater Cruising Capability

[Carlisle Spirit]

Originally Posted by Doodles

I've heard the same but I think it was "single model" as opposed to "single design" ... A big difference.

I love these generalisations...

Actually the difference between "model" and "design" for Tayana 37 is not material

All hulls were/are (they are still making them) made in the same factory, by the same company (TaYang), even using the same team of people

While some have slightly altered interior layout and some have a ketch rig - the hulls are all the same

Carlisle Spirit

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Carlisle Spirit

I love these generalisations...

Actually the difference between "model" and "design" for Tayana 37 is not material

All hulls were/are (they are still making them) made in the same factory, by the same company (TaYang), even using the same team of people

While some have slightly altered interior layout and some have a ketch rig - the hulls are all the same

Carlisle Spirit

No, what has been said (I heard Bob Perry repeat this himself) is that the Tayana 37 may be the most popular boat out cruising, and that is different than saying full keel boats are the most popular out cruising. Full keel is a design, Tayana 37 is a model that happens to also be a full keel boat. Not all full keels are Tayana 37's ... obviously.

[westsail374]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

Wolfenzee, that is a lovely boat.

[westsail374]

Are you no longer taking data? Said I got the monohull question wrong when I answered one.....

[westsail374]

Originally Posted by shanedennis

We keep rehashing this argument but we simply do not have enough data. It is hard to quantify the skills of crew of the boat, but we can quantify the boats.

I am tired, bored old database programmer and data-lover so while reading this discussion I created data driven web site to allow us to catalog the sailboats that have attempted ocean crossings.

If you have attempted an ocean crossing, or know of a boat that has, then fill out my survey here:
http://www.bluewatersailingdata.com/surveys/1_form.php

View the results here:

http://www.bluewatersailingdata.com/
Click on any of the pie chart slices for details.

Like Lake Superior sailor, I want to hear about all the boats that have attempted crossings. The information about the boats that failed in their attempts is at least as useful as those that succeeded in their crossing.

I have entered some ARC data as a baseline and will keep building the database from various information sources as I get time. If you have data in a machine readable format then please PM me.

Are you no longer taking data? Your messager said I got the monohull question wrong?

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by westsail374

Wolfenzee, that is a lovely boat.

Thanks, She's a sweet old girl...they just don't make and/or design 'em like they used to.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

What I get defensive about it that people seem to think because it is a full keel, heavy displacement boat it must be slow and can't get out of it's own way in light to medium air. That's not the case with my boat and I am not so much defending my boat as trying to steer people away from major generalizations.

All other things being equal, a full keel boat or even a boat with a long fin keel (like my old boat) is going to be considerably slower, and considerably less capable of sailing close to the wind, than a boat with a modern underbody, which has two key advantages: (a) a fin keel with enough aspect ratio will generate lift like an airplane wing; (b) much less wetted surface. A full keel boat will have wetted surface disproportionate to its displacement, so you can't make up for it by bringing SA/D up to the same standard (higher ballast ratio will help, but you soon end up with a monster needing a monster rig).

This is not a "generalization" but simple, objective physics.

All things are not always equal, so sometimes these advantages are not as good in the real world as they are on paper. Without good sails, good rigging, and good sail trim skills, so better pointing ability of modern underbodies might be wasted on most cruisers (how many cruising boats have I seen with no travelers, no vangs, and sometimes even sheet leads corroded in place?).

And of course a bit of skill can quickly wipe out a theoretical disadvantage in design. I raced Jolie Bris for 52 miles from Weymouth to Hamble last spring. Jolie Bris is a wooden gaff cutter built about a century ago, known for having won the first Fastnet race, and just about the same size and displacement as my boat. On the first leg, in a stiff breeze (25 -30 knots) and on a beam reach, we were able to carry more sail and walked away from Jolie Bris, who was well reefed down. After rounding St. Albans's Head, we hove to and had a hot lunch (the sea was pretty rough), during which time JB passed us. After this, close-hauled, we had a hell of a time catching up, and passed her only just as we entered the Needles. I was amazed that she was pointing just as high as we were, on our best angle for VMG to windward. We had all of .1 knots of advantage. Boy, what a beautiful sight she was, a cloud of tan-bark sail.

The moral of the story? Theory is theory, but even an antique gaff cutter, in really good condition and in the hands of a really skilled (and in this case, professional) sailor, can embarrass a less skilled, amateur sailor in a modern, theoretically much faster boat.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by westsail374

Are you no longer taking data? Said I got the monohull question wrong when I answered one.....

You have to answer, 1, not one,
I got the same and changed it, then it accepted my answer,

[daddle]

Originally Posted by westsail374

Wolfenzee, that is a lovely boat.

Yes she is. Yes I said that. But never seen one with that proper-looking sail and rig plan. All seem to be cut down to tiny sails. They chop the boom, raise it up, and wonder why it sails like a pig. And who would be enough of a real sailor to have running backstays?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Really? It's often said (though admittedly, I have no way of proving it ...) that more Tayana 37s (modified full keel) are out cruising than any other singe design.

I would have thought that Beneteau/Jeanneau would run away with that. Certainly on the ARC it is. I think I've seen only one Tayana. Oyster must be up there too and HR, Tayana didn't build that many boats. Virtually unheard of in Europe, which is the largest sailboat market in the world. Pro rata the US is not a sailing centre.

Dave

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Doodles

No, what has been said (I heard Bob Perry repeat this himself) is that the Tayana 37 may be the most popular boat out cruising, and that is different than saying full keel boats are the most popular out cruising. Full keel is a design, Tayana 37 is a model that happens to also be a full keel boat. Not all full keels are Tayana 37's ... obviously.

I'm not entirely convinced of your distinction, but my intent was only to suggest this about the Tayana 37 model (in your parlance). My point stands.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Tayana didn't build that many boats.

Dave

I guess this depends on your definition of "that many." No, Tayana doesn't pop them off like sausages, but for a traditional yard, it has produced (and continues to produce) quite a few boats.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...Europe, which is the largest sailboat market in the world. Pro rata the US is not a sailing centre. Dave

I had no idea. Is the market super depressed like it is in the US? I'm thinking upgrade size-wise. There's an Ericson 27 I'm considering locally. Cheap, with diesel. It's 7000 disp compared to my boat's 4000. Of course, with the same PHRF rating, it's gotta be a dog like a WetSnail or a Slocum. I don't think I can live with that despite the extra storage room.
Guess I'd better put armchair on AP and get googling. I might be up for a "milk run" from Europe.

[carstenb]

Blue Crab

Check out
Boatmarket|Used and new boats and yachts. A boat and yachtmarket for sailing boats, motor boats and motor sailors, powerboat and dinghies. Free Buy, sell, charter advertising. Visit the Scandinavien boatmarket

Lists many of the boats for sale in europe.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I don't really think there is a neat definition. Perhaps the closest is whether a Boat is Bluewater passage ready (as that includes everything - including design, condition, equipment, crew and skipper).....and "ready" is for the folks getting onboard, not anyone else.

In regard to the 2012 Catalina 30, I would not automatically say no (as long as not straight from the crate - but that same as any boat)........ But I would not be jumping up and down to say yes either...........Another 10 foot would make me happier......but a lot of that also based on how enjoyable the voyage would be.

But in practice that won't ever be a concern for me - as my boat is better than "your" boat..........

Oh no it's not