Bluewater Cruising Capability

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Yes. This sort of profile is seaworthy, but rare.

but that's not full-keeled. That's a modified full keel. Full-keel would be a Westsail 32, for example.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Wolf, I was sort of hoping that with the posting of the Guppy as "bluewater," folks would kinda sorta know I was joking. For the life of me, I don't get why you SEEM defensive. You have a wonderful boat. Looks great, sails great, edge-nailed strip plank is about as tough as it gets, 12" centered ribs ... I get it. Love to have it. Trade you my Swan for it! Full disclosure: I'd trade the Swan for VT's Slocum too, even if it's a dog flying fish in light air. First PM gets the Swan.

What I get defensive about it that people seem to think because it is a full keel, heavy displacement boat it must be slow and can't get out of it's own way in light to medium air. That's not the case with my boat and I am not so much defending my boat as trying to steer people away from major generalizations.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by sneuman

but that's not full-keeled.

The definition of full keeled, or modified full keel , or modified full keel with a cut away forefoot is destined for the archives. Nevertheless the number of cruising boats with this sort of profile is rare.

[Mark1977]

Ya know, I have been reading most of this thread and there is allot of B.S.........
water sailing">Blue water sailing is 90% the skipper and 10% the boat. If I have a boat with good rigging and a good hull why couldn't you take it anywhere? A good skipper makes choices of when to go with the equipment he has to work with.

[Kettlewell]

The definition of full keeled, or modified full keel , or modified full keel with a cut away forefoot is destined for the archives. Nevertheless the number of cruising boats with this sort of profile is rare.

I think it depends on your definition of "rare" and where you are cruising. Lots of them up here in the Northeast and New England. I would guess half the monos in the boatyard I'm hauled out at are what I would consider full keel or long fin and skeg hung rudder. Most of these aren't bluewater boats, but my boat is currently between two long keelers with windvane self-steering on the stern, and my windvane is off for the winter, so all of us apparently have done a fair bit of ocean sailing. At the recent Annapolis boat show the Island Packet section seemed to be one of the biggest and busiest.

I'm not arguing that one keel configuration is the best from a bluewater perspective, but I don't think you can dismiss the long-keeled boat as a thing of the past.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Mark1977

Ya know, I have been reading most of this thread and there is allot of B.S.........
Blue water sailing is 90% the skipper and 10% the boat. If I have a boat with good rigging and a good hull why couldn't you take it anywhere? A good skipper makes choices of when to go with the equipment he has to work with.

It is human nature to blame faults on equipment and/or think the right equipment can overcome the short comings of the skipper/crew. Though I have seen people that are totally clueless sailing in conditions they should not have been come through un-scathed (thier success could be attributed to the design of boat). I agree blue water sailing is 90% the skipper....but the right boat does make it alot easier to over come the short comings of the poor skipper. the effects of fatigue and the importance of a "sea-kindly" boat are highly under rated.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I think it depends on your definition of "rare" and where you are cruising. Lots of them up here in the Northeast and New England. I would guess half the monos in the boatyard I'm hauled out at are what I would consider full keel or long fin and skeg hung rudder. Most of these aren't bluewater boats, but my boat is currently between two long keelers with windvane self-steering on the stern, and my windvane is off for the winter, so all of us apparently have done a fair bit of ocean sailing. At the recent Annapolis boat show the Island Packet section seemed to be one of the biggest and busiest.

I'm not arguing that one keel configuration is the best from a bluewater perspective, but I don't think you can dismiss the long-keeled boat as a thing of the past.

I am not trying dismiss the long keeled cruiser. Personally I am in in favour of any seaworthy boat, but long keeled, or semi long keeled, cruising boats are not common in the world of long distance cruising boats.
That does not mean that cannot make reliable and trustworthy cruising boats, but to portray this style of boat as the epitome of typical cruising boats is false, and does not match the realities of boats that out there.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by AirHead

In my mind, the attraction of the 315 and similar boats seems to be the bang for the buck, plus the comfort during the phases when I'll be in the sound, cruising in the sea of cortez, and island hopping the polynesians. The risks seems to be the run from Seattle down south and of course the pacific crossings from west coast and back.



If it is not too much of an ask, it would be really helpful to a noob like me in weighing the statements if the proponents can also add their own personal bluewater/rtw experiences and typical cruising grounds, from where their advices are coming from.

A friend sailed his Catalina 34 down the coast to Mexico from Vancouver, BC.

Here are some of his observations.

1500 Mile Interim Refit Report & 3596 Update

The issue is storage space. If it's just one person on a C315, it might work, but check his observations about the watermaker and battery capacity, as well as all the necessary "support systems" --- being self-sufficient is a wise thing. In fact, Lin & Larry Pardey wrote a whole book on just that subject.

[svseachange]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'd like to see the numbers and incidents from which you draw your conclusions.

I'm the first one to admit I don' t have enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions. Some of the data I have collected is posted on bluewatersailingdata.com.

My comments were observations based on the very limited data collected so far. I am not interested in all cruising boats, just interested in those that have attempted 500nm + ocean passages
It is difficult to find the data, so I am guessing it will take a long time, if ever, before I collect enough to draw meaningful conclusions. If you want to help, and you have completed an ocean passage, then please fill out the survey posted on the site. The more data the better.

I bought my (very pretty but not cheap) Crealock/Pacific Seacraft 34 in the absence of good data. Lots of expert opinions, formulas etc, and some convincing anecdotal "evidence", but no really good data. I want to change that for those who buy boats in the future.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

What I get defensive about it that people seem to think because it is a full keel, heavy displacement boat it must be slow and can't get out of it's own way in light to medium air. That's not the case with my boat and I am not so much defending my boat as trying to steer people away from major generalizations.

True. A lot has to do with SA/D. A Tayana 37, for example, has something just shy of 18, which is the result of a pretty substantial numerator. She is easily moved in 5 knots of wind on any point of sail, even with somewhat baggy sails.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I am not trying dismiss the long keeled cruiser. Personally I am in in favour of any seaworthy boat, but long keeled, or semi long keeled, cruising boats are not common in the world of long distance cruising boats.
That does not mean that cannot make reliable and trustworthy cruising boats, but to portray this style of boat as the epitome of typical cruising boats is false, and does not match the realities of boats that out there.

I think you notice what you want to notice. I would agree that they're in the minority, but of the boats I've observed in the U.S. and Asia (in distant ports of call), I would say "rare" is an exaggeration. Again, if you want to look at this year's Carib 1500, there's certainly a smattering of modified full keels there.

[wolfenzee]

as opposed to a fin keel, my boat is a full keel. But there are many different variations of "full keel". My boat is not a "long keel" and is not wide as some,
beam is 29% of loa or 3.4:1. Sail Area/Disp is about 16.75.The deepest point is at the bottom of the transom hung rudder (about 4' from the transom). The keel configuration sacrifices headroom in the forward cabin and the narrow beam sacrifices overall cabin room in exchange for high performance.

[Kettlewell]

I think you notice what you want to notice. I would agree that they're in the minority, but of the boats I've observed in the U.S. and Asia (in distant ports of call), I would say "rare" is an exaggeration. Again, if you want to look at this year's Carib 1500, there's certainly a smattering of modified full keels there.

I agree with this above, but my experience is Labrador to the Caribbean and over to Central America, and there are tons of full and long-keelers out and about. Very, very few really light boats, including the cats, which are mostly the very heavy ones. For that matter the typical cruising boat is an older fiberglass production boat, showing they have the stuff to do it, but they do tend to be the heavier ones. I always say that a cruising sailboat is really a small cargo ship, and heavier boats are generally better at carrying loads and not losing performance and seaworthiness.

[starchaser 2011]

Some information that I've not seen anywhere else that those following this thread might find interesting. Adventure Bound, the sailboat that fought her way to stand by Windigo the Bene. 393 that rolled en route from Tonga to NZ, is a Tayna 37. Just an observation.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Really? It's often said (though admittedly, I have no way of proving it ...) that more Tayana 37s (modified full keel) are out cruising than any other singe design.

I've heard the same but I think it was "single model" as opposed to "single design" ... A big difference.