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Old 23-11-2012, 17:51   #496
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I've started to collect data on boats lost at sea while reading this thread.

So far it seems crews of modern production boats are far more likely to abandon floating boats than those on heavy duty cruisers (eg: Windigo). It also appears as though modern production boats are much more susceptible too cruise ending keel/rudder/structural damage when they hit something than heavy duty cruisers (eg: Catalina 30 in Pacific). On the other hand heavy duty cruisers seem more likely to get stuck in dangerous weather well after the newer boats out run it (eg: IP in NARC, Tayana in Tasman Sea).

It is important to note that although production boats tend to be abandoned earlier they do not seem more likely to sink or suffer major hardware failures due to weather conditions. The exception is when modern production boats hit an unknown object or reef they seem to be more likely to sink.

Two other things have surprised me:
1. The frequency in when which life rafts are immediately lost (blown away) upon inflation.
2. The real risk of death or injury when "rescued", especially by a merchant vessel.
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Old 23-11-2012, 17:55   #497
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Any comments on Liberty 49 or Formosa 56 as bluewater boats? I like them both. Thanks!
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Old 23-11-2012, 18:28   #498
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My boat was designed by William Atkin in 1936 to be an "ocean cruiser" it does not have opening ports, it has "dead lights" 1/4" through bolted plexiglass 4"x10" ovals and one 4" round....never leaked in 4 years. I did acquire a set of Perko opening ports which I plan to install. In warmer climes you want as much ventilation as possible.
If properly installed a dead light is far less likely to leak than an opening port....properly installed bedding compound fastened down with closely spaced screws provides a much more water tight seal than a gasket securely with a hinge on one side and dogs on the other. I don't know how someone could think otherwise.
Wolf, I was sort of hoping that with the posting of the Guppy as "bluewater," folks would kinda sorta know I was joking. For the life of me, I don't get why you SEEM defensive. You have a wonderful boat. Looks great, sails great, edge-nailed strip plank is about as tough as it gets, 12" centered ribs ... I get it. Love to have it. Trade you my Swan for it! Full disclosure: I'd trade the Swan for VT's Slocum too, even if it's a dog flying fish in light air. First PM gets the Swan.
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Old 23-11-2012, 18:47   #499
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Ours does not have a single opening one. I like the opening ones as they allow way better air circulation in the tropics.

Can't see any relationship between opening or not and bluewater capability.

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Old 24-11-2012, 19:16   #500
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I doubt more than a few of the boats out cruising the high seas have any type of certification. Which is fine by me. Most certification, in my opinion, only legalizes a standard of *minimum* quality. No thanks. For example: Building codes legalize crummy housing, UL and CSA seals on completely cheezy electrical gear...etc.

Also in my opinion, Catalinas are not designed with ocean cruising in mind, but coastal sailing. But again many boats out cruising were no so intended either. The Calalina yachts I have been on seemed plenty capable. Stout. I wouldn't be concerned about a Catalina falling apart in bad conditions.

On your first point you are completely wrong

EVERY production boat in Europe is CE certified ( otherwise they aren't allowed to sell them )

EVERY production boat in US is also certified , usually with ABYC and IMCI ( yes even the people who made your brand of boat certify some models )

That leaves the very small percentage of owner built boats, which may or may not be certified

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Old 24-11-2012, 20:54   #501
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I suppose it depends where you cruise. I can see charter boats having valid certificates. However the typical cruiser is older and any manufacturer certification has certainly been invalidated by owner modifications.

Maybe there are more than I would think, but it is still a meaningless effort to standardize a minimum low quality. My dinghy has every AU certification imaginable yet it is a complete POS.
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Old 25-11-2012, 01:46   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlisle Spirit

On your first point you are completely wrong

EVERY production boat in Europe is CE certified ( otherwise they aren't allowed to sell them )

EVERY production boat in US is also certified , usually with ABYC and IMCI ( yes even the people who made your brand of boat certify some models )

That leaves the very small percentage of owner built boats, which may or may not be certified

Carlisle Spirit
Firstly while CE rating of boats in the EU, is mandatory , ABYC is merely a code of practice. ( a good one ). iMCI as far as CE category A is concerned is merely a RCD notified body.

The CE category of a boat was and is not intended as an assurance of its capability. ( Which os why insurance companys rarely even bother with it) Nor is there any requirement for the boat to " remain in class", unless major craft modifications are undertaken m such as different engines, changes in length etc. even then virtually nothing that is modified is recertified. Until owners and purchasers start looking for the CE Technical File, and authorities start being more vigilant , this isn't going to change.

CE certification is more to do about about following a stated and documented quality path rather then particular quality path. Is this regard its like ISO 9000. Hence you can build quite a crappy Cat A boat.

To my knowledge Catalina does not CE rate it's boats, though Hunter do as hunter sell in the EU

certification is fine if you understand what it is. , its not the be all of the consideration.

Dave.
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Old 25-11-2012, 01:52   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanedennis
I've started to collect data on boats lost at sea while reading this thread.

So far it seems crews of modern production boats are far more likely to abandon floating boats than those on heavy duty cruisers (eg: Windigo). It also appears as though modern production boats are much more susceptible too cruise ending keel/rudder/structural damage when they hit something than heavy duty cruisers (eg: Catalina 30 in Pacific). On the other hand heavy duty cruisers seem more likely to get stuck in dangerous weather well after the newer boats out run it (eg: IP in NARC, Tayana in Tasman Sea).

It is important to note that although production boats tend to be abandoned earlier they do not seem more likely to sink or suffer major hardware failures due to weather conditions. The exception is when modern production boats hit an unknown object or reef they seem to be more likely to sink.

Two other things have surprised me:
1. The frequency in when which life rafts are immediately lost (blown away) upon inflation.
2. The real risk of death or injury when "rescued", especially by a merchant vessel.
I'd like to see the numbers and incidents from which you draw your conclusions. Given the tiny tiny percentage of "traditional" long keeled cruisers actually cruising and the vastly greater numbers in modern production boats ( there probably more boats in a single ARC crossing then all the traditional types put together ), you results will be completely skewed.

The two bulleted conclusions are quite valid though.

Dave
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Old 25-11-2012, 11:51   #504
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
I think you only need to look at the current crop of Vendee racers to see that today's high tech building methods do stand the test of time. Several have been RTW more than once and sailed harder than any cruiser ever will and in extreme conditions. "Over built" is at best a relative quality and can be a source of a false sense of security. IMHO of course.
You have been paying attention to the race, no? Lots of breakdowns and withdrawals. I think that's largely irrelevant to this discussion, however, as these boats are engineer to press the outside of the envelope, and in that case, the envelope is bound to break a good percentage of the time.
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Old 25-11-2012, 11:53   #505
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I'd like to see the numbers and incidents from which you draw your conclusions. Given the tiny tiny percentage of "traditional" long keeled cruisers actually cruising and the vastly greater numbers in modern production boats ( there probably more boats in a single ARC crossing then all the traditional types put together ), you results will be completely skewed.

The two bulleted conclusions are quite valid though.

Dave
Really? It's often said (though admittedly, I have no way of proving it ...) that more Tayana 37s (modified full keel) are out cruising than any other singe design.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:09   #506
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

It's actually fairly rare to meet a full keeled cruising boat. IMHO they are often a good solution particuarly in the smaller boat size, but the vast majority of cruising boats worldwide do not have a long keel.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:25   #507
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It's actually fairly rare to meet a full keeled cruising boat. IMHO they are often a good solution particuarly in the smaller boat size, but the vast majority of cruising boats worldwide do not have a long keel.
I can only think of a few truly full-keeled boats, anyway, so that may be a bit of a strawman. Lots of modified full keels, however, and lots of cruising keels (big fin and skeg-hung rudder). In fact, those are probably the majority out there overall.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:47   #508
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

It seems to me that a thread with this title, Bluewater Cruising Capability, could easily be all about the skipper and crew, and be of at least as much value. Certainly, the system consists of boat, equipment, and crew.

Do we have any earthly notion of how much the odds of bluewater success, safety, and enjoyment are improved by some sort of training and working up to more ambitious voyages versus the "just do it" school? It seems that we mostly hear about the extremes; those who are very successful and those who fail spectacularly and sometimes tragically. We don't hear as much from the "We had a pretty good voyage or sabbatical year, but we didn't expect x and we would have done better if we'd done y and z". And I hear a little bit about people practicing with equipment, but not a whole lot.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:51   #509
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I can only think of a few truly full-keeled boats, anyway, so that may be a bit of a strawman. .
Yes. This sort of profile is seaworthy, but rare.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:56   #510
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Skipper65 View Post
Any comments on Liberty 49 or Formosa 56 as bluewater boats? I like them both. Thanks!
marques liberty and formosa ARE designed as blue water usage type boats, even in smaller than 50' footage sizes.

but not everyone sailing them can or will make it across oceans. it is the human sailing the boat that will determine whether or not that boat built for blue water usage will make port or be lost.
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