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Old 20-11-2012, 19:50   #451
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Are you kidding? We all know what manufacturers have sacrificed structural integrity for the bottom line. Go to manufacturer forums and read some of the horror stories.

As far as my 37' 1985 Slocum being overbuilt..... She's 28k lbs with 11,200 ballast on a 32' waterline. And she's Airex cored! I'd say that's over built but that's the way I like it. That's also the reason she can throw up 900+ sq. ft of sail and do 7+ knots in 12-15 knot breeze.

Besides I can't help myself. I'm Italian and I like my women with a little meat on their bones....

RT
I ask you again to please state facts not speculation. Overbuilt by what standard I ask again? You seem to think she is built just right and other boats are built to light....As an engineer I assume you could answer and figure this yourself. Is seems as though you are repeating what you've already heard. What standard are you using to say your boat is overbuilt? You have said it about 1000x's so obvious there is a standard of boat building in which you are comparing your boat to, it just so happens that your boat is overbuilt...not better...Is that right?
BTW none of the boats in my marina sunk this year...all kinds all makes, some cruisers some racers...all still afloat. Please state facts, please. I hate wasting my time but I feel like I need to know.
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Old 20-11-2012, 20:07   #452
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Regarding the Pearson 52 that was abandoned on the way to Bermuda...Pearson sailboats were only built till the early 90s when the company went under.

The 52 saga is a long , colorful one that shows just how strong a balsa cored boat can be.

In short: After being abandoned in the Atlantic, the boat drifted for a few months and was found by an African commercial ship off Morrocco. It was crudely lifted on deck in rough seas and transported to Congo where it was (again crudely) tossed on a commercial concrete dock then dragged away for storage. Over the next 2-3 years, it was stripped of most hardware and equipment before being loaded onto another ship (NOT yacht transporters) and taken across the Atlantic to the Carribean and ultimately (after about 5-6 years) to Miami.

The boat was in very rough shape but ultimately bought, refitted, looks great and sails again too.

Hull and interior bulkheads and joinery were pretty much intact at the time it was found (except for many giant gouges) after falling off a ship to concrete maybe 50' then bouncing around for a few weeks on steel decks at sea.
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Old 20-11-2012, 20:27   #453
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Ballenxj View Post
Yeah, What is "Oil Canning?" And, a hull can flex in an out?
-Bruce
There is a differance between being able to flex and being able to push the hull in with your palm...being so weak you can only put jack stands where there are bulkheads to back it up...oiil caning....squeeze an empty beer can lightly
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Old 20-11-2012, 20:41   #454
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by silverp40 View Post
Regarding the Pearson 52 that was abandoned on the way to Bermuda...Pearson sailboats were only built till the early 90s when the company went under.

The 52 saga is a long , colorful one that shows just how strong a balsa cored boat can be.

In short: After being abandoned in the Atlantic, the boat drifted for a few months and was found by an African commercial ship off Morrocco. It was crudely lifted on deck in rough seas and transported to Congo where it was (again crudely) tossed on a commercial concrete dock then dragged away for storage. Over the next 2-3 years, it was stripped of most hardware and equipment before being loaded onto another ship (NOT yacht transporters) and taken across the Atlantic to the Carribean and ultimately (after about 5-6 years) to Miami.

The boat was in very rough shape but ultimately bought, refitted, looks great and sails again too.

Hull and interior bulkheads and joinery were pretty much intact at the time it was found (except for many giant gouges) after falling off a ship to concrete maybe 50' then bouncing around for a few weeks on steel decks at sea.
Certainly sounds like a sturdy boat, but now I have to ask; why did they go out of business?
-Bruce
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Old 20-11-2012, 20:52   #455
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I made the vacuum moulds for the wings of the A380 airplane,

They wrap Kevlar sheets over the moulds and vacuum the Kevlar onto the moulds and then cook the lot in an oven for a prescribed time,

In planes, that flex is so many ups and downs, it is then scrapped as its life time of use has been reached, It may give years of use after it reaches its life time limit, but the safety factor of its life comes into being, after that, Non failure of the part cannot be guaranteed, so the part is scrapped,

A boat is different, as a failed part can be cut out and remade, run a boat up on the rocks, fill it up with fibreglass and your away again, Thats a no no with planes,

There is a certain amount of flex in all materials, As long as the flex is within the materials structural integrity is not exceeded it will last for a very very long time,

If the flex is over The structural integrity of the material it will self destruct in time, how long that will take is dependant on the material and the flex involved, the more flex, the quicker it will self destruct,

EG; the top of the Empire State building sways 12 feet each way, other wise it would have crashed down years ago, Multi story buildings all sway each way, Bridges go up and down, flexing,

Stand in the middle of a big bridge, it goes up and down, you can feel it with out any problems,

If they were rigid, they would snap off,

Watching the walls of your boat moving in and out, say an inch or so, would be quite scary, But feeling the hulls move slightly with your hand on it, is quite normal,
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Old 20-11-2012, 22:09   #456
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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That's your call boss. Has a Moderator ever killed an entire thread on this forum? Now would be a perfect time. We ARE sort of meandering aimlessly about. But oh what fun....

RT
I can answer that. Yes, the Mods have closed hundreds of threads on this forum. They've also banished forum members who seem to have trouble with forum rules.
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Old 20-11-2012, 23:00   #457
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Old 20-11-2012, 23:39   #458
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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.....
Personally I have been far more scared sailing in conditions that would not fit the strict definition of blue water.
Amen to that.

I don't recall hardly ever being scared in blue water.

Can't say that about sailing coastal (hmmm... reminiscent of 'going postal').

In some parts of the world, the primary aim is to get into bluewater ASAP.

And I'm pretty sure most people would agree that the coastal phase at the end of a blue water passage is often the most testing part of the voyage.
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Old 21-11-2012, 01:53   #459
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

We were out sailing today and passed this. I am not sure if he will sloop rig it or ketch rig it, but it does look a bit iffy to me regarding it's "blue water " capability. But, if it is overbuilt, then it should be ok.



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Old 21-11-2012, 02:05   #460
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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We were out sailing today and passed this. I am not sure if he will sloop rig it or ketch rig it, but it does look a bit iffy to me regarding it's "blue water " capability. But, if it is overbuilt, then it should be ok.



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Old 21-11-2012, 02:23   #461
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

We were out sailing and saw this thing coming towards us. It must have cost a fortune looking at all the fixtures and fittings as we went past, but would love to see him trying to dock it in a 40knot southerly that we get here, every now and then, in the afternoons.

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Old 21-11-2012, 03:37   #462
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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precicly one of the reasons I will go for a quality catamaran for bluewater.
Oh, goodonya, mate. Me too!

PLS notice though that a quality cat will cost X times more than that Catalina. It IS a different exercise.

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Old 21-11-2012, 05:37   #463
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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There is a difference between being able to flex and being able to push the hull in with your palm...being so weak you can only put jack stands where there are bulkheads to back it up...oiil caning....squeeze an empty beer can lightly

I have read the "being able to push the hull in with your hand" comment lots of times over the years. Most seem to be uban legend comments that normally begin with "someone told me that he was told by a guy that knew a yard monkey who said".

If true of course I would definitely question the construction. But I have never seen this in the winter yard where I keep my boat, which has a lot of different boats in it. If I ever did see it the first thing what would cross my mind isn't that "gee Brand X sure makes a crappy boat" it would be "man there must be serious problem with that boat".

Part of these "Brand X boats are crap" discussion is not about boats at all. It is about the use and care owners have given the boats. If an owner allows a deck fitting to leak for years, is it a reflection of the builder when the core rots? If you drive your boat onto the rocks is the builders fault the the keel gets damaged?

If a builder has been in business building boats for 40 years building all different models aimed at all different users and has 10s of thousands of boats out there; I can guarantee that you will come across a lot more of them with "problems" than some builder who only build 1 style and has a few 100 boats out on the water!

Most of the stories you read about some boat issue in forums and the internet are written by someone who of course is looking to vent and blame the boat for something they did. It is written to support their point of view and gain agreement from others. Yet once any of these things are written people just believe and accept it. And they even start quting it and the thing grows to the point that it becomes "everyone knows".

I know that years ago I was in the anti modern production boat camp. Why? Because I had read it here. But as time went by I started looking for another boat and took a hard look at the newer mass produced boats. In the end it became clear that for the most they were very good boats and that the high number of "problems" were really very few problems given the number of boats.

If you want to be a forum herd animal and stick your chest out with the "my boat is X" that can survive the 0.01% chance of X happening because I read it in a book etc., by all means go look for one one of those. If you want a good boat with good value that will serve you good the rest of the time open your eyes and mind.

Back to the OP - I don't feel that the Catalina 315 is a good boat for long distance travel away from shore. I think is is a good boat for island hopping and coatral cruising where you will be at sea a fews days at a time. This doesn't mean that I don't feel that there are lots of Catalina's that can go anywhere one would normally what to go.
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Old 21-11-2012, 05:57   #464
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Every time you get on an "aeroplane" Bash thank your lucky stars they are "overbuilt". Both plane and boat share the same dilemma, trying to stay together when traveling through a fluid that can be daunting and unpredictable.
Why then are so many new developments from the aerospace industry than still frowned upon when it comes to building boats? Why is it OK to glue aluminium when you are building a plane, but not when building a boat?
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Old 21-11-2012, 06:54   #465
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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What bugs me equally as much is all old design boats are lumped together to point out how they are all inferior to all modern design boats
and in music the kings of rock n roll would be considered old fashion compared to the modern stuff
In ye goode olde days they also built sh#te boats (and made sh#te music )....but time has a habit of identifying (and dealing with!) those. and rose tinted spectacles .

IMO most overbuilt boats from days gone by were overbuilt accidently, mostly from ignorance and good intentions - which probably also accounts for most of those builders having long since gone broke . Nowadays folks know "better" - and build what the market actually wants to pay for, and mostly that is "good enough".

Will folks in 30 and 40 years time be re-building 2012 Hunters? I suspect not both because their will be better and newer boats built but also because the boats are not intended to last that long. Of course I am sure there will be some folks doing just that - and likely they also claiming that gluing fibreglass to balsawood core is the proper way to build a boat......unlike those who simply have a boat 3D printed in one piece - with soft furnishings included .
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