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Old 20-11-2012, 11:05   #436
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I'm siding with Don on this issue... while never experienced oilcanning on a sailboat, I do recall vividly experiencing a Navigator 56 hull moving like a bellows amidships on a short trip from San Diego to Catalina. She was brand new and the owner lacking experience so asked my wife and I to accompany him on a weekend trip. It was disconcerting to say the least to watch the hull bouncing in and out and wondered about the near and longer term structural damage that might be occurring. I won't go in to the lack of fuel capacity which had us down to less than 50 gallons after completing the return trip. Boy, those power boats can suck up the fuel!!
Navigators were touted to be blue water cruisers by the manufacturer and sales folks... NOT! Very comfortable in a slip and great liveaboard, though. Phil
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Old 20-11-2012, 11:33   #437
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

RT,

In one of your posts I believe you mentioned your over-built, no compromise, guaranteed, bullet proof hull is built with a foam core. You might want to read this article.

Marine Surveying : Composits - High Tech Materials in Boat Building

And before you go there, I happen to own a boat with a balsa cored hull and I'm quite happy with it. From an engineering point of view, done properly a core offers many advantages and little risk.
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Old 20-11-2012, 11:56   #438
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

My hull isn't just 1' thick mahagony strip plank, there are 3' vertical nails nailing the planks togetjher and the 2x3" frames at 12" centers basically means 1/4 the hull is 3" thick (not including the 1/4 cieling inside and the 2 layers fibergalss and 3 layers epoxy barrier coat outside. I saw a photo of my hull taked with an infared camera, vertical lines spaced 6" apart. Some refer to it as a "mono coupe" construction...I hope I never have to replace part of the hull.
I remember when I used to work at a boat yard some fiber glass boats had hulls so thin they would "oil can" (you could push the hull in with your hand)if you didn't put the stands where the bulkheads were.
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:05   #439
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
RT,

In one of your posts I believe you mentioned your over-built, no compromise, guaranteed, bullet proof hull is built with a foam core. You might want to read this article.

Marine Surveying : Composits - High Tech Materials in Boat Building

And before you go there, I happen to own a boat with a balsa cored hull and I'm quite happy with it. From an engineering point of view, done properly a core offers many advantages and little risk.
Never said bullet proof but no hull (Airex cored) or deck (balsa cored) delamination and NO BLISTERS. I guess the Chinese got it right...

RT
PS I think you forget that I have said the Sea can take ANY boat ANY time it wishes. My run ins with Murphy and reading should I dare say have lead to the conclusion that having an overbuilt boat makes it more difficult for him to make a lasting impression.
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:10   #440
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
I'm siding with Don on this issue... while never experienced oilcanning on a sailboat, I do recall vividly experiencing a Navigator 56 hull moving like a bellows amidships on a short trip from San Diego to Catalina. She was brand new and the owner lacking experience so asked my wife and I to accompany him on a weekend trip. It was disconcerting to say the least to watch the hull bouncing in and out and wondered about the near and longer term structural damage that might be occurring. I won't go in to the lack of fuel capacity which had us down to less than 50 gallons after completing the return trip. Boy, those power boats can suck up the fuel!!
Navigators were touted to be blue water cruisers by the manufacturer and sales folks... NOT! Very comfortable in a slip and great liveaboard, though. Phil
So Capt. Phil you were alarmed by the Navigators bellowing midships but support the conclusion that it is nothing to be concerned about?

Murphy's listening...

RT
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:16   #441
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I reiterate that actual data (hard core examples) is helpful (sorry about the pun but they are considered to be the highest form of humor).


Here is an account of oilcanning in a smaller Hunter on the Great Lakes...

Potnetial sinking hazard on Hunter 30G/30T - SailboatOwners.com


Here is a caution on liners disbonding from the hull. The example is a 50 foot Hunter. The article points out that smaller Hunters are also known for this failure.

Marine Surveying : Hull Design Defects - Hull Failure Part II - Boats and Yachts Surveys

Picture this failure halfway to Ireland in a gale...
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:17   #442
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Tick....tick...tick....

Time is running out.

1. Behave! Remember the be nice rule
2. If you all are only going to go round incircles without presenting any new information then has the thread run its course?
That's your call boss. Has a Moderator ever killed an entire thread on this forum? Now would be a perfect time. We ARE sort of meandering aimlessly about. But oh what fun....

RT
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:21   #443
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Wait before closing down, the core/can and hull failure info is interesting...
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:39   #444
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
I reiterate that actual data (hard core examples) is helpful (sorry about the pun but they are considered to be the highest form of humor).


Here is an account of oilcanning in a smaller Hunter on the Great Lakes...

Potnetial sinking hazard on Hunter 30G/30T - SailboatOwners.com


Here is a caution on liners disbonding from the hull. The example is a 50 foot Hunter. The article points out that smaller Hunters are also known for this failure.

Marine Surveying : Hull Design Defects - Hull Failure Part II - Boats and Yachts Surveys

Picture this failure halfway to Ireland in a gale...
Now you have really done it! The Hunter folks are go'in to git ya!

RT
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Old 20-11-2012, 12:40   #445
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

This thread started out as an is it or isn't it. Most boat produced today keep in mind the "average sailor" which in the eyes of the marketing industry are coastal weekend cruisers. Very few boats are "blue water ready" right off the assembly line, some have enough of a base to be able to be upgraded while some are and always will be coastal cruisers.
Thinking of what my boat lacks to be a good "sea boat" is a short list of stuff that has only really been available for boat in relatively recent years, in other words my boat has logged alot of sea miles before some of the "essentials" were even invented. The Pardeys para phrases the KISS principle when they said "Go simple go now". People have a tendency to concentrate on the frills first, they are easier to achieve and more obvious....hull design and construction is the base, anything else can be upgraded, replace, modified, added/subtracted (somethings though are better to put in the same category as the hull).
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Old 20-11-2012, 16:06   #446
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My boat is 30' narrow beam mono-hull "ocean cruiser" design with a certain degree of elegance and personality of a boat designed 75 years ago with the warmth and energy inherent in a wooden boat. Add to that a price of under $20,000 (after all upgrades and such).

Now a "quality catamaran" probably brand spanking new, how big ?
probably 10 times the cost and so completely different in so many ways they can't be compared at all.
Please note this thread is in the "mono hull" category
It's a big ocean....to each their own
Must admit although I have followed this thread from its start but never looked at heading to realise this thread was in the monohull section.

Not sure what elegance, warmth and personality has to do with bluewater capable.

However seasworthiness is relevant to all on the sea and I find following threads on all types of vessels a usefull process if one does not have a closed mind. I have learnt a lot from some of the experienced monohull cruisers on this site.

Aditionally I did note not note that the thread was discussing bluewater capable vessels over 30 yrs old, under $20,000 cost, and under 40ft in length. To do so would rule out the majority of vessels that are actually cruising bluewater today.

cheers
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Old 20-11-2012, 16:28   #447
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
This thread started out as an is it or isn't it. Most boat produced today keep in mind the "average sailor" which in the eyes of the marketing industry are coastal weekend cruisers. Very few boats are "blue water ready" right off the assembly line, some have enough of a base to be able to be upgraded while some are and always will be coastal cruisers.
Thinking of what my boat lacks to be a good "sea boat" is a short list of stuff that has only really been available for boat in relatively recent years, in other words my boat has logged alot of sea miles before some of the "essentials" were even invented. The Pardeys para phrases the KISS principle when they said "Go simple go now". People have a tendency to concentrate on the frills first, they are easier to achieve and more obvious....hull design and construction is the base, anything else can be upgraded, replace, modified, added/subtracted (somethings though are better to put in the same category as the hull).
The only difference I would have is that I would replace "...some have enough base..." , with "..most have enough base...", yes there are some clangers out there, but most modern boats with a few upgrades ( and even that list is shortening) can do "blue water", whatever that actually means


dave
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Old 20-11-2012, 16:59   #448
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Wait before closing down, the core/can and hull failure info is interesting...
Yeah, What is "Oil Canning?" And, a hull can flex in an out?
-Bruce
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Old 20-11-2012, 17:15   #449
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

vtcapo, I was alarmed at the obvious oilcanning on what purported to be a sound vessel capable of 'blue water cruising' according to the brochure. I don't know enough to be certain it was problematic from a structural standpoint but can't help but think it is not a good sign. You flex any material long enough, over time it will probably fail, particularly if it was intended to provide structural stability. Perhaps someone with an engineering background could shed more light on the subject.
In response to your question, Bruce, 'oilcanning' is the constant flexing of the hull in and out due to the varying pressure of the ocean against the hull from the outside as the vessel moves through the water. To me, it isn't a good sign if it happens everytime you get in a bit of a sea. Phil
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Old 20-11-2012, 17:50   #450
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Bruce, 'oilcanning' is the constant flexing of the hull in and out due to the varying pressure of the ocean against the hull from the outside as the vessel moves through the water. To me, it isn't a good sign if it happens everytime you get in a bit of a sea. Phil
Thanks Phil. Kind of like when you are pouring a plastic bottle of oil, and when each glug leaves the bottle and the sides flex? I think I got it now.
-Bruce
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