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Old 08-11-2012, 03:21   #31
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Thank you Dave for summing it all up nicely. No disagreement here

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Old 08-11-2012, 06:41   #32
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Aren't academic debates entertaining. I wonder if anyone actually sailing offshore in their flimsy, unable to withstand a rogue wave sailboat reads this crap
It never ceases to amaze me how seasoned sailors ignore ALL the possibilities. I am not suggesting that you need the ultimate boat to cross the stream or an ocean. I am only suggesting that if Murphy shows up your boat should be able to handle what ever comes its way. That is on YOU.

Frankly, **** happens ALL the time. If your boat is not up to snuff the only one to blame is yourself and your casual thinking. Experience is of course a factor but years of experience didn’t help those on board that Freedom 40. BTW that 911 call came just off the coast, if I remember correctly off Lantana. No reefs out there and if they were run down there would have been debris.

This was a typical case of an experienced crew meeting up with Murphy and not coming back to talk about. What you should be talking about is how would YOUR boat handle a situation like that i.e., caught in hurricane conditions in the stream. And don’t cope out and tell me you wouldn’t have gotten caught because you watch the weather. This is a “what if”.

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Old 08-11-2012, 07:08   #33
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

folks have been cruising hunters, catalinas, benetaus even across big water-- beneteau and catalina have been rtw--catalina 27 in 1990--name of my sweet lord-- and jamel, from cf, just finished a trip from kali to oz or thereabouts in a 42 catalina--new model--as awesome inside---mebbe even a hunter has been cruised around world by now--the boat is only one factor to be concerned with. the sailor is as important or more so than boat--sailor is the one with brain, and functioning arms legs and sailing ability----if you feel you can sail rtw , goforit.....sail what you can first to figger out if you really want to sail in the boat you find....
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:59   #34
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how seasoned sailors ignore ALL the possibilities. I am not suggesting that you need the ultimate boat to cross the stream or an ocean. I am only suggesting that if Murphy shows up your boat should be able to handle what ever comes its way. That is on YOU.

Frankly, **** happens ALL the time. If your boat is not up to snuff the only one to blame is yourself and your casual thinking. Experience is of course a factor but years of experience didn’t help those on board that Freedom 40. BTW that 911 call came just off the coast, if I remember correctly off Lantana. No reefs out there and if they were run down there would have been debris.

This was a typical case of an experienced crew meeting up with Murphy and not coming back to talk about. What you should be talking about is how would YOUR boat handle a situation like that i.e., caught in hurricane conditions in the stream. And don’t cope out and tell me you wouldn’t have gotten caught because you watch the weather. This is a “what if”.

Illusion, if this is beyond your scope of imagination it is quite understandable. You demonstrated that before during our heated discussions concerning the Hunter 54.

If you what to read crap just re-read your posts….

RT
Once again you are not addressing the point of the captain's responsibility to check the weather. "Hurricane conditions" do not pop up in Florida or the Bahamas without warning in hours or even days. If the Freedom you keep referring to was caught in real hurricane force winds in the Gulf Stream it was a failure of the operator, not the boat.

I would even stick my neck out to say that real, survival level storms with long duration, hurricane force winds generating large breaking waves are quite predictable in the lower latitudes and with knowledge and prudence can be avoided with almost 100% certainty. Watch the weather, know the seasonal patterns, know the weather patterns for the area you're sailing and the chance of s*** happening is slim to none.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:38   #35
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how seasoned sailors ignore ALL the possibilities. I am not suggesting that you need the ultimate boat to cross the stream or an ocean. I am only suggesting that if Murphy shows up your boat should be able to handle what ever comes its way. That is on YOU.
i know of NO seasoned sailors who ignore anything or overlook anything-- the ones i have met and know see ALL and deal with it on a knowledgeable level.
every SAILOR i know is able to deal with whatever comes along.
and then there are credit card cruisers--those are not sailors, are they.
now----another point to ponder--is not murphy a part of all and each of us???
is our personal lil devil who comes into play when least invited, which is his personal invite??
major storms are in formation usually weeks before most folks are in the experience of them. passage weather i have found is good fro almost a week these days...i use for 3-4 days accurately at a time. formations are seen early on and predicted in path and intensity accurately these days.
as for all of it--is our personal choice into what we will venture, is it not??? and, as sailors see from all angles, i do not understand this statement posted about seasoned sailors not seeing all possibilities...because they DO. and they understand all, as well. most have been in all--so why not understand the point of view instead of generalizing that seasoned sailors do not see all around them--that is totally false.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:56   #36
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Once again you are not addressing the point of the captain's responsibility to check the weather. "Hurricane conditions" do not pop up in Florida or the Bahamas without warning in hours or even days. If the Freedom you keep referring to was caught in real hurricane force winds in the Gulf Stream it was a failure of the operator, not the boat.

I would even stick my neck out to say that real, survival level storms with long duration, hurricane force winds generating large breaking waves are quite predictable in the lower latitudes and with knowledge and prudence can be avoided with almost 100% certainty. Watch the weather, know the seasonal patterns, know the weather patterns for the area you're sailing and the chance of s*** happening is slim to none.
Skipmac you are avoiding the question by doing exactly what I suggested not to do, coping to the weather reports.

I said "WHAT IF". Since I am talking about being caught out, how have YOU prepared your vessel for this possible scenario. What steps have you taken aboard your boat to address the HOLES.

For that matter, how would you have handled that storm in your boat... and that's a question for everyone...

Peenie Wallie: Charley's Crab and the death of Chuck Muer

RT
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:59   #37
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i know of NO seasoned sailors who ignore anything or overlook anything-- the ones i have met and know see ALL and deal with it on a knowledgeable level.
every SAILOR i know is able to deal with whatever comes along.
and then there are credit card cruisers--those are not sailors, are they.
now----another point to ponder--is not murphy a part of all and each of us???
is our personal lil devil who comes into play when least invited, which is his personal invite??
major storms are in formation usually weeks before most folks are in the experience of them. passage weather i have found is good fro almost a week these days...i use for 3-4 days accurately at a time. formations are seen early on and predicted in path and intensity accurately these days.
as for all of it--is our personal choice into what we will venture, is it not??? and, as sailors see from all angles, i do not understand this statement posted about seasoned sailors not seeing all possibilities...because they DO. and they understand all, as well. most have been in all--so why not understand the point of view instead of generalizing that seasoned sailors do not see all around them--that is totally false.
I guess I should have said SOME seasoned sailors. But I think you haven't been reading through some of the threads concerning what "seasoned sailors" on this forum consider "seaworthy".

RT
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:12   #38
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Skipmac you are avoiding the question by doing exactly what I suggested not to do, coping to the weather reports.

I said "WHAT IF". Since I am talking about being caught out, how have YOU prepared your vessel for this possible scenario. What steps have you taken aboard your boat to address the HOLES.

For that matter, how would you have handled that storm in your boat... and that's a question for everyone...

Peenie Wallie: Charley's Crab and the death of Chuck Muer

RT
I am not copping out to a weather report, I am telling you how real world sailors handle real world cruising and passage planning.

The problem is you are playing what ifs on a situation that you should never encounter unless you made a very poor decision. Also, if you are trying to prepare a boat to handle every possible catastrophe, even ones with a 0.01% chance of happening you will never, never leave the dock. You have to make reasonable, informed decisions about risk management and prepare for the ones that are most dangerous and most likely and ones that you can do something to prepare for or prevent.

What if a meteor lands on your boat? It has happened, not to a boat but to a house. What are your plans for that eventuality? What if you hit an old WWII mine that is drifting around the ocean? If you commute 3 miles to work in rush hour traffic at a top speed of 30 mph do you need a car that is designed to handle a rollover at 100 mph?

Silly examples, but the point is, there are more things that can happen than you could even imagine. So, how would I have handled the storm that might have been responsible for sinking the Freedom sailing from the Berry Island to FL? By checking the weather before departure and not sailing out into the Gulf Stream in hurricane force winds. There is absolutely no reason and no excuse for getting caught in a storm of that magnitude on a 150 mile voyage where there are plenty of resources for checking the weather before departure.

BUT, if in some more realistic situation you are caught out in a survival level storm the tactics, procedures and equipment have been thoroughly discussed about as often as guns and anchors and why rehash it again? Heaving to, sea anchors, drogues, secured hatches and lockers, good pumps, collision damage control, all are part of the arsenal of tools.

Again, if you are going no further than the Exumas, unless you go in August/September, never listen to a single weather report and never speak to a sailor or local that does, your odds of being in hurricane force winds and seas is about zip. Spend more time rigging a good cockpit cover to minimize UV exposure and skin cancer risk. Its a lot higher risk factor.
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:16   #39
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

"I guess I should have said SOME seasoned sailors. But I think you haven't been reading through some of the threads concerning what "seasoned sailors" on this forum consider "seaworthy"."

perhaps you, a new member, do not know how long some of us have been members and some of us are already out here cruising. mebbe a search of statistics will show you how many of those threads i actually contributed to. and mebbe you would like to know exactly what true seaworthiness actually is. has nothing to do with new shiny or what asa did you take. keep reading. you may yet learn... smooth sailing.
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:36   #40
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

[QUOTE=skipmac;1079551]I am not copping out to a weather report, I am telling you how real world sailors handle real world cruising and passage planning.

What if a meteor lands on your boat? It has happened, not to a boat but to a house. What are your plans for that eventuality? What if you hit an old WWII mine that is drifting around the ocean?

What if you just answer my question?

RT
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:39   #41
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
"I guess I should have said SOME seasoned sailors. But I think you haven't been reading through some of the threads concerning what "seasoned sailors" on this forum consider "seaworthy"."

perhaps you, a new member, do not know how long some of us have been members and some of us are already out here cruising. mebbe a search of statistics will show you how many of those threads i actually contributed to. and mebbe you would like to know exactly what true seaworthiness actually is. has nothing to do with new shiny or what asa did you take. keep reading. you may yet learn... smooth sailing.
So far the only one offering up any advice on seaworthiness is me.

I think you and Skipmac need a little time together to sort out my questions..

RT
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:49   #42
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

I think it is time to stop talking about boats surviving the perfect storm (didn't a Bene already do that). We all know that unless the boat gets holed it is going to out survive the carbon based units on it.

It's time to talk about boats being able to survive something more likely to happen - a whale landing on it! This is at least as likely to happen to a "seasoned sailor" as being caught out in these extinction storm events!
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:58   #43
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

what if you decide to ask a REAL question, one worthy of an answer--these things--if they happen--so what-- you wont be here anymore to say "waah poor me" any longer-
-so , what you want to know about reality?????

what if the mechanical shark starring in jaws comes out of the sea and eats you???? if this is the kind of question that you consider about seaworthiness, you have much to learn. you are dissing folks out cruising for these questions???? why??? what is your gain??

trolling is only respectable when fishing or seeking companionship of alternate gender.....yes i did say that correctly.
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Old 08-11-2012, 14:07   #44
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

[QUOTE=vtcapo;1079572]
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I am not copping out to a weather report, I am telling you how real world sailors handle real world cruising and passage planning.

What if a meteor lands on your boat? It has happened, not to a boat but to a house. What are your plans for that eventuality? What if you hit an old WWII mine that is drifting around the ocean?

What if you just answer my question?

RT
RT, you're starting to sound like a broken record. I have given you my answer. Here again.

Your scenario is unlikely and you are asking me to answer a question when the question itself is wrong. Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no? There is no yes or no answer for me to that question. To your question my answer is the same as I already stated, I would pay attention to the weather I and wouldn't be there.

FYI I was in FL when the Storm of the Century hit and remember it well. While it came on a little faster and was more severe than predicted it was predicted and no time to be crossing the Gulf Stream.

If, in a more realistic scenario you are there, then that question has been asked and answered a dozen times. I see no reason to beat that dead horse and I am not going to have any better answer than has already been offered by many with way more experience than I have. Go read Hal Roth, Adlard Cole, L&L Pardey. Read the comments on CF from estarzinger. Depending on the situation I use one of the exact same techniques used by one of them.
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Old 08-11-2012, 14:39   #45
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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(...) To me the essential qualities associated with a boat capable of making safe blue water passages is whether or not it can survive a pitch pole and repeated knockdowns. (...)
Few boats (if any) can take repeated knockdowns.

Displacement is NOT an indication of seaworthiness: a light and strong boat may sail better in bad weather and accept more blows before it breaks up than a heavy displacement, poorly sailing boat.

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