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Old 20-11-2012, 03:54   #421
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Yep. But here we would be back to the old fallacy that in a lighter faster boat one is likely to be less in bad weather (one can dodge more, one can sail out of more, blah blah, blah) etc.. And this fallacy, as many, would drag its tail in some facts of life too.

Of course a truly bendy boat may be a risk to avoid. I have heard of at only one though - a Gibsea from the 70ties (maybe 80ties). Otherwise, I never hear of boats to bend - and when the furniture cracks it does not mean the boat bends.

Simply avoid bad boats - light or heavy (and there are plenty of heavy boats that are very bad choice for crossing oceans too) - get a good boat - one that sails well, is easy to maintain underway and preferably easy to fix up and keep on sailing if something goes of the rails.

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Old 20-11-2012, 04:37   #422
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
What bugs me equally as much is all old design boats are lumped together to point out how they are all inferior to all modern design boats
I don't recall anyone saying this! But I do recall how many post assumptions that ALL modern production boats are poor design, unsafe, etc. Or that ALL boats from manufacturer X are poor boats regardless of model etc.
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Old 20-11-2012, 08:53   #423
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
He said "Not that this is a bad thing unless the manufacturer and his bean counters are sacrificing structural integrity for the bottom line", the implication begin that structural integrity is one of the features that could be lost for the benefit of speed and accommodations.

Why did you jump on that?
For some, reading comprehension is not their strong suit. “Unless” was the key word. Thanks for clearing that up.

As Tim Bodber points out, NO ONE wants a bendy boat if they get caught in the ****. A few years ago, I think it was 2009 a new Pearson 55 if my memory serves me correctly on way to Bermuda (maybe some of you read about this) got into the **** and she started to oil can. The oil canning was so extreme the bulkheads started to separate and the experienced crew abandoned her. AND SHE WASN’T EVEN TAKING ON WATER!

No, as far as I’m concerned, when it comes to Commercial airliners and Cruising sailboats “overbuild” is a good thing as long the weight trade off doesn’t seriously hamper performance. If I get there a day or two behind you I can live with that because I will feel secure in knowing that my tried and true crusty lump WILL get there.

RT
PS Can you imagine the Chinese fire drill that ensued while abandoning a NEW boat that wasn’t even taking on water? Crew members said they thought at any moment the hull would fail…
PPS Btw, have a Commercial Airline pilot talk to you about wing flex. You may never fly again.
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:04   #424
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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PPS Btw, have a Commercial Airline pilot talk to you about wing flex. You may never fly again.
That is not a valid comparison. Aircraft are designed to have substantial wing flex. This is an image of the wings of a Boeing 787 under test loads:
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:05   #425
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
A few years ago, I think it was 2009 a new Pearson 55 if my memory serves me correctly on way to Bermuda (maybe some of you read about this) got into the **** and she started to oil can.
A 2009 Pearson 55? You might want to fact-check that story.
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:13   #426
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Looking at the other side of the coin it would be most instructive to look at as many cases as we can where serious failure or a sinking occurred during a passage.

Like diving, when we started going beyond 200 feet in the 80's every fatality was examined as closely as possible for lessons learned.

Much more would be learned from the incidents than would be learned from the successes. We know that in the incidents people and structures went past the limits.

Of primary interest to this thread would be incidents concerning hardware failures.
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:13   #427
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Actually, my company used to build the machines that airplanes got strapped into for wing bending and fatigue testing. They are supposed to flex. Otherwise they will break and fall off.

Of course that might leave you altitudenally challenged if it happened at 40,000 feet
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:56   #428
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

For the most these "overbuilt" and "flex" stories are like urban legends! Doesn't matter how many people with production boats that have been though hell and have said their boats don't flex etc. it will never stop those with the old boats making the claim that all modern production boats do this!

Far as an internet poster saying things are the truth just because they are an engineer, so what! There are lots of engineers here posting in this thread who haven't felt the need to state they are also engineers. Far as being an aerospace engineer, unless your name is Bob Johnson so what as we are talking about sailboats! I always find it amusing that sailors start thinking they know more about boat design than the real boat designers!

Far as "overbuilt" being better, I find an engineer claiming that weigh equals strength a joke!

I feel anyone who needs to be insulting to others people's boats in order to justify theirs, an ignorant fool at best! Hiding their insults as trying to help and protect others is BS.
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Old 20-11-2012, 09:58   #429
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

+1




Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
For the most these "overbuilt" and "flex" stories are like urban legends! Doesn't matter how many people with production boats that have been though hell and have said their boats don't flex etc. it will never stop those with the old boats making the claim that all modern production boats do this!

Far as an internet poster saying things are the truth just because they are an engineer, so what! There are lots of engineers here posting in this thread who haven't felt the need to state they are also engineers. Far as being an aerospace engineer, unless your name is Bob Johnson so what as we are talking about sailboats! I always find it amusing that sailors start thinking they know more about boat design than the real boat designers!

Far as "overbuilt" being better, I find an engineer claiming that weigh equals strength a joke!

I feel anyone who needs to be insulting to others people's boats in order to justify theirs, an ignorant fool at best! Hiding their insults as trying to help and protect others is BS.
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Old 20-11-2012, 10:03   #430
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
For the most these "overbuilt" and "flex" stories are like urban legends! Doesn't matter how many people with production boats that have been though hell and have said their boats don't flex etc. it will never stop those with the old boats making the claim that all modern production boats do this!
Does this mean you don't believe the above example of the 2009 Pearson?
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Old 20-11-2012, 10:14   #431
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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A 2009 Pearson 55? You might want to fact-check that story.
I could be wrong concerning new but that's how I remember it. I know it was a Pearson over 50 ft. I had a hard time finding the news report but I think the 4th post in the following thread is what I am talking about.

pearson424.org :: View topic - oil-canning

Btw Newbies read the whole thread about oil canning. You will have a new outlook concerning being "overbuilt".

RT
PS Wing flex..... Wings are periodically checked for hairline cracks. If serious enough they are fixed by using shunts. The airline pilot I spoke to had serious reservations about that method of fix and was looking forward to retirement. As an engineer I too would have serious reservations if I had to pilot a plane patched together. We are not talking about a shunted mast....
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Old 20-11-2012, 10:28   #432
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Does this mean you don't believe the above example of the 2009 Pearson?

well since there is no such thing a 2009 Pearson I guess I don't believe it

but even if it were true it doesn't make it apply to all boats now does it?
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Old 20-11-2012, 10:35   #433
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
I could be wrong concerning new but that's how I remember it. I know it was a Pearson over 50 ft. I had a hard time finding the news report but I think the 4th post in the following thread is what I am talking about.

pearson424.org :: View topic - oil-canning

The old P422/424s have a know issue with some where the anchor well bulkhead has a space between the deck and the bulkhead.

Yet these models are on a often quoted list of "bluewater" boats. So what is the point? You could make more of a case of a lot of the older "bluewater" boats having problems with the stainless used for chainplates and the issue with soft cores due to the poor deck fittings and teal deck screws.
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Old 20-11-2012, 10:44   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

That is not a valid comparison. Aircraft are designed to have substantial wing flex. This is an image of the wings of a Boeing 787 under test loads:
...must...not...look....want to still fly.....aghhhhh!
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Old 20-11-2012, 11:02   #435
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Tick....tick...tick....

Time is running out.

1. Behave! Remember the be nice rule
2. If you all are only going to go round incircles without presenting any new information then has the thread run its course?
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