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Old 19-11-2012, 14:47   #391
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
More fodder for Murphy...

RT
PS At least something in the back of your head is telling you your boat is not ready for the Blue Water challenge. I guess there is hope for you and your crew....
I have spent more time at sea and water under my feet than you read about on the computer and sail magazines! I speak from the experience of being out at sea in good and bad weather...I know what mother nature has to offer. One thing I know is that no matter the size or material or keel, no boat built will be prepared for everything. That is a fact! So...You worry about you, your boat,your crew and sharpening your keyboar...I mean sailing skills. My crew and Alberg 30 have someone with a little experience looking after them! My Alberg needs some maintenance from 40+ yrs of sailing. She has great bones and needs some TLC, but I sail her. All boats needs some loving and if they don't today they will tomorrow.

OP please go sailing, big boats, small boats... any boat and with enough experience you will know when you have the right boat for you to cruise in.
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Old 19-11-2012, 14:50   #392
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Spend a bit of money on overbuild!
"Overbuilt" is a particularly apt descriptor for your Little Harbor 46. When Ted Hood originally designed the boat, its designed displacement was supposed to be 32,500 lbs. When the Taiwan yard built it, however, it came out at 47,000 lbs displacement. Indeed, the boat floated eight inches lower than its designed waterline.

I should think that Beneteau--"and their close cousins," as you put it--would be mortified if a modern prototype was that far "overbuilt" from its design.
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Old 19-11-2012, 15:19   #393
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
"Overbuilt" is a particularly apt descriptor for your Little Harbor 46. When Ted Hood originally designed the boat, its designed displacement was supposed to be 32,500 lbs. When the Taiwan yard built it, however, it came out at 47,000 lbs displacement. Indeed, the boat floated eight inches lower than its designed waterline.

I should think that Beneteau--"and their close cousins," as you put it--would be mortified if a modern prototype was that far "overbuilt" from its design.
My boat was designed over built and the builder over built that (13,200 lbs design/15,000+ lbs now at design waterline) , previous owners have kept up that tradition everywhere from rigging to the re-power....everything I have done to the boat has either matched or improved on what was there.
Part of the dividing line between a "coastal cruiser" and "blue water boat" is rigging and equipment (something that can be upgraded from a "factory boat")
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Old 19-11-2012, 15:56   #394
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Even that rule varies with different designs. Some boats you try to get them as flat as possible. My boat does best a 25degree heel (though she would prefer 30), addition of 800lbs ballast to the 3200lbs on the bottom of the keel did not make a significant difference, the only solution would be hiking boards and a much larger crew than I would like on my boat (trimming the sails enough bring it back to a "civilized heel" drops the speed about 30% and sailing with poorly trimmed sails is hard on the sails. The builder even named her "Roll N Go"of course my boat was designed 75 years ago when things were done differently. Even though it doesn't take much to get my boat over to 30 degrees, it takes alot to get it past that, as an experiment I sailed with main (37'luff/15'foot) and 180genny(39'luff/23'foot) in 15kts wind for 3 hours. Did 6.5kts at 40degree heel (rail under 3" of water) if a gust of wind pushed me over to 45degrees, the boat pivoted up into the wind.
Of course there are the "sailors" around here that when the wind gets up to 10 or 15 kts they all come scurrying in. For me 10-15 kts means a nice leisurely sail, I'm going hull speed without having to handle big sails......20kt winds is where it starts to get fun, 30 is exhilarating , 40 is when I start to get a little concerned (but is still a blast)
G'Day Wolf,

Well, that sounds very salty all right, but I wonder if you have done many long passages in her? Some years ago I owned a S&S designed Yankee 30, which was a sweet boat to sail (as are most of their designs). I had her for around 6 years, racing and coastal cruising from SF bay area. Loved the boat, but she liked to sail at big heel angles, much as you describe your boat.

Then Ann and I sailed her to Hawaii and back. Sixteen days going, twenty -one returning. And we found that for long passages like those, sailing at 25-30 degrees of heel was VERY fatiguing. With metaphorical tears in our eyes we sold her down the river and looked for a different boat for our long term cruising.

Oh, and that boat would sail herself to windward with the helm free (not lashed) as long as you wanted her to, fin keel and all. And when the Autohelm 2000 died the first day out of Kauai on the return trip, a sheet to tiller rig sailed the 2300 or so miles back to SF.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 19-11-2012, 16:14   #395
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Wolf,

Well, that sounds very salty all right, but I wonder if you have done many long passages in her? Some years ago I owned a S&S designed Yankee 30, which was a sweet boat to sail (as are most of their designs). I had her for around 6 years, racing and coastal cruising from SF bay area. Loved the boat, but she liked to sail at big heel angles, much as you describe your boat.

Then Ann and I sailed her to Hawaii and back. Sixteen days going, twenty -one returning. And we found that for long passages like those, sailing at 25-30 degrees of heel was VERY fatiguing. With metaphorical tears in our eyes we sold her down the river and looked for a different boat for our long term cruising.

Oh, and that boat would sail herself to windward with the helm free (not lashed) as long as you wanted her to, fin keel and all. And when the Autohelm 2000 died the first day out of Kauai on the return trip, a sheet to tiller rig sailed the 2300 or so miles back to SF.

Cheers,

Jim
I haven't sailed and long passages in her (I was told by others she would sail for days on end with a lashed tiller, and I have improved the balance), but she has under other owners and I am planning on setting out next spring. The boat is pretty well balanced now, but I plan on experimenting with different sail combinations to improve on it. The extreme heel on this boat is really only when closer to the wind than a beam reach, anything else is more civilized.
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Old 19-11-2012, 17:50   #396
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Wolf,

Well, that sounds very salty all right, but I wonder if you have done many long passages in her? Some years ago I owned a S&S designed Yankee 30, which was a sweet boat to sail (as are most of their designs). I had her for around 6 years, racing and coastal cruising from SF bay area. Loved the boat, but she liked to sail at big heel angles, much as you describe your boat.

Then Ann and I sailed her to Hawaii and back. Sixteen days going, twenty -one returning. And we found that for long passages like those, sailing at 25-30 degrees of heel was VERY fatiguing. With metaphorical tears in our eyes we sold her down the river and looked for a different boat for our long term cruising.

Oh, and that boat would sail herself to windward with the helm free (not lashed) as long as you wanted her to, fin keel and all. And when the Autohelm 2000 died the first day out of Kauai on the return trip, a sheet to tiller rig sailed the 2300 or so miles back to SF.

Cheers,

Jim
precicly one of the reasons I will go for a quality catamaran for bluewater.
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Old 19-11-2012, 19:07   #397
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My boat was designed over built and the builder over built that (13,200 lbs design/15,000+ lbs now at design waterline) , previous owners have kept up that tradition everywhere from rigging to the re-power....everything I have done to the boat has either matched or improved on what was there.
Part of the dividing line between a "coastal cruiser" and "blue water boat" is rigging and equipment (something that can be upgraded from a "factory boat")
When I went to school for Aerospace engineering, commercial aircraft were designed with “overbuild” in mind. Of course within limitations considering what we designed had to get off the ground. Still as my teachers would explain, after you do the stress analysis make sure you add in the “fudge factor” for safety. Granted this was 1965 when we were using Fortran and punch cards. But we were designing commercial aircraft. When the designs involved spacecraft, weight considerations were of paramount importance and light weight expensive alloys were used to mitigate the “fudge factor” much the same as with Kevlar on race boats.

As with commercial aircraft, Blue Water Cruising sailboats should follow the same design credo with “over build” in mind. A good number of your jiffy pop, shot from a gun production boats out there will not stand the test of time.

RT
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Old 19-11-2012, 19:08   #398
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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precicly one of the reasons I will go for a quality catamaran for bluewater.
My boat is 30' narrow beam mono-hull "ocean cruiser" design with a certain degree of elegance and personality of a boat designed 75 years ago with the warmth and energy inherent in a wooden boat. Add to that a price of under $20,000 (after all upgrades and such).

Now a "quality catamaran" probably brand spanking new, how big ?
probably 10 times the cost and so completely different in so many ways they can't be compared at all.
Please note this thread is in the "mono hull" category
It's a big ocean....to each their own
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Old 19-11-2012, 19:47   #399
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
When I went to school for Aerospace engineering, commercial aircraft were designed with “overbuild” in mind. Of course within limitations considering what we designed had to get off the ground. Still as my teachers would explain, after you do the stress analysis make sure you add in the “fudge factor” for safety. Granted this was 1965 when we were using Fortran and punch cards. But we were designing commercial aircraft. When the designs involved spacecraft, weight considerations were of paramount importance and light weight expensive alloys were used to mitigate the “fudge factor” much the same as with Kevlar on race boats.

As with commercial aircraft, Blue Water Cruising sailboats should follow the same design credo with “over build” in mind. A good number of your jiffy pop, shot from a gun production boats out there will not stand the test of time.

RT
I hope you were using my boat as an example of the type that stands the test of time. My boat is 40 years old with 40,000-50,000nm under the keel. Hull is 1"thick top nailed strip plank mahagony on double 2x3" frames at 12" centers with 2 layers of fiberglass on the outside (using epoxy resin), 3-piece laminated 47' (stepped on keel) Sitka Spruce mast, 1/4" 316SS rigging, Vetus M415 (1500cc Mitsubishi engine 33hp) etc....
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Old 19-11-2012, 19:51   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtcapo

When I went to school for Aerospace engineering, commercial aircraft were designed with “overbuild” in mind. Of course within limitations considering what we designed had to get off the ground. Still as my teachers would explain, after you do the stress analysis make sure you add in the “fudge factor” for safety. Granted this was 1965 when we were using Fortran and punch cards. But we were designing commercial aircraft. When the designs involved spacecraft, weight considerations were of paramount importance and light weight expensive alloys were used to mitigate the “fudge factor” much the same as with Kevlar on race boats.

As with commercial aircraft, Blue Water Cruising sailboats should follow the same design credo with “over build” in mind. A good number of your jiffy pop, shot from a gun production boats out there will not stand the test of time.

RT
That's one of the great things about building anything, hard or soft ... there is theory and there is reality!
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Old 19-11-2012, 19:52   #401
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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As with commercial aircraft, Blue Water Cruising sailboats should follow the same design credo with “over build” in mind. A good number of your jiffy pop, shot from a gun production boats out there will not stand the test of time.

RT

I guess new fiberglass, stainless steel and aluminum will not last.....that seems like a very odd statement coming from an engineer. i guess in 40 yrs we will see......
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Old 19-11-2012, 20:00   #402
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I guess new fiberglass, stainless steel and aluminum will not last.....that seems like a very odd statement coming from an engineer. i guess in 40 yrs we will see......
The fiberglass on my boat is not 40 years old....40 years ago they used polyester resin, which doesn't stick to wood very well. 30 years ago fiberglass was removed, sanded to bare wood and replaced with fiberglass using epoxy resin, 2 years ago I sanded down to bare glass and applied 3 layers of epoxy resin (renewing the resin in the glass and strengthening the old glass)
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Old 19-11-2012, 20:04   #403
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I guess new fiberglass, stainless steel and aluminum will not last.....that seems like a very odd statement coming from an engineer. i guess in 40 yrs we will see......
I think you only need to look at the current crop of Vendee racers to see that today's high tech building methods do stand the test of time. Several have been RTW more than once and sailed harder than any cruiser ever will and in extreme conditions. "Over built" is at best a relative quality and can be a source of a false sense of security. IMHO of course.
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Old 19-11-2012, 20:05   #404
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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The fiberglass on my boat is not 40 years old....40 years ago they used polyester resin, which doesn't stick to wood very well. 30 years ago fiberglass was removed, sanded to bare wood and replaced with fiberglass using epoxy resin, 2 years ago I sanded down to bare glass and applied 3 layers of epoxy resin (renewing the resin in the glass and strengthening the old glass)

Wolf, i am sure your boat, along with those being produced today will be here in 40 yrs just as my alberg is here after 40 yrs. Mr VT claims to be an engineer of no less that the areo space indusrty but claims that boats of today will not "stand the test of Time". Very odd statement for an engineer of years past to question the integrity of engineers of today
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Old 19-11-2012, 20:08   #405
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I think you only need to look at the current crop of Vendee racers to see that today's high tech building methods do stand the test of time. Several have been RTW more than once and sailed harder than any cruiser ever will and in extreme conditions. "Over built" is at best a relative quality and can be a source of a false sense of security. IMHO of course.

Doodles, Please read the quote in the post you are replying to. I quoted VT when he said jiffy pop spray....bs....more bs,.... anyway my point was that I am sure boats today will be around for many many years to come. Sorry if i wasnt clear.
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