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Old 19-11-2012, 02:37   #376
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Cruiser2B has some valid points. People have crossed oceans in everything from huge ships to almost bathtubs. Right now there is a swedish guy building a 10 foot boat that he plans to circumnavigate in. So the question is not "what can sail blue water" but rather "What will YOU sail blue water in?"

VT likes to raise the Murphy aspect. We should, as competent skippers be aware of our chosen boats weaknesses (failings) and act accordingly to rectify these. But obviously, we're not gonna rebuild the boat from the keel up (then we just buy a different boat).

Do we need a full keel? No
Is a fin keel acceptable yes.
How much safety equipment do we load the boat with?
Radar - maybe
AIS maybe
Liferaft - maybe (ask Evans Starzinger)
watermaker maybe

The list goes on and the answer to almost all questions is "maybe". It si all up to the skipper.

I wonder how VT manages to keep his Murphy paranoia at bay while on land. Drive a tank? Double seat belts? Force all roads to be cleared of all traffic before he ventures out?

How about his bed (where most people in the western world die) - what does he do here?
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Old 19-11-2012, 04:19   #377
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
.........
How about his bed.....
- what does he do here?
I don't think I actually want to know what he does in bed LOL .
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Old 19-11-2012, 04:31   #378
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
How about his bed (where most people in the western world die) - what does he do here?
Why do most people die in VT's bed? What from? Suicide perhaps.

Coops.
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Old 19-11-2012, 04:35   #379
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Why do most people die in VT's bed? What from? Suicide perhaps.

Coops.
Boredom? Maybe his keel's not long enough?
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Old 19-11-2012, 04:47   #380
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I've actually done that on a fin keel. You don't need a long keel to have good tracking.
Now tell me, can you turn your boat around within its own length?
You got me there.....

RT
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Old 19-11-2012, 05:14   #381
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Cruiser2B has some valid points. People have crossed oceans in everything from huge ships to almost bathtubs. Right now there is a swedish guy building a 10 foot boat that he plans to circumnavigate in. So the question is not "what can sail blue water" but rather "What will YOU sail blue water in?"

VT likes to raise the Murphy aspect. We should, as competent skippers be aware of our chosen boats weaknesses (failings) and act accordingly to rectify these. But obviously, we're not gonna rebuild the boat from the keel up (then we just buy a different boat).

Do we need a full keel? No
Is a fin keel acceptable yes.
How much safety equipment do we load the boat with?
Radar - maybe
AIS maybe
Liferaft - maybe (ask Evans Starzinger)
watermaker maybe

The list goes on and the answer to almost all questions is "maybe". It si all up to the skipper.

I wonder how VT manages to keep his Murphy paranoia at bay while on land. Drive a tank? Double seat belts? Force all roads to be cleared of all traffic before he ventures out?

How about his bed (where most people in the western world die) - what does he do here?
Hmm….

Do we need a full keel? No (My preference but no).
Is a fin keel acceptable yes. (Agree)
How much safety equipment do we load the boat with?
Radar – maybe (I will be looking to buy one).
AIS maybe (Another one asking to be fodder for Murphy.)
Liferaft - maybe (ask Evans Starzinger). (Maybe? Go Blue water without a liferaft? (Did you come in on the short bus today?)
watermaker maybe. (How about diverting the deck scuppers to a selector valve that leads to your water tanks?)

The list goes on and the answer to almost all questions is "maybe". It si all up to the skipper. (Maybe? It is up to the skipper to insure that ALL contingencies are covered. If not you are irresponsible.)


I wonder how VT manages to keep his Murphy paranoia at bay while on land. Drive a tank? Double seat belts? Force all roads to be cleared of all traffic before he ventures out?

(Aaaa.. Late model Highland with air bags all around.)

How about his bed (where most people in the western world die) - what does he do here?

(I thought you wanted to keep that our little secret…. Sweetie pie?)

RT
PS Every one of your points has been previously addressed. Please try to keep up.
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Old 19-11-2012, 05:19   #382
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
Can someone please explain how one judges a boat to be "coastal cruiser"? I think we have a pretty good feel for what some consider a bluewater boat. San Francisco bay and buzzards bay are some very coastal areas that can dish up some of the nastiest weather and sea states there is, yet I see many many so called "coastal cruisers" there and sailing, year after year.

Personally I like full keel boats for the way they feel and sail, slow and steady. Does that mean my alberg 30 will take me wherever I wish to go. Some say yes, I say yes as well but after I increase her tankage, repair her decks and a slew of other things that i think is required to hit the seven seas, 30 gallons of water is not gonna get me far. I believe my skill and nerve will carry me through, not necessary what boat I am on.

Will a catalina make it RTW, you bet it will. maybe the hull isn't as thick as some, it may have a spade rudder.....whatever. if it floats it has a good chance it will make it. If it has a skilled sailor onboard even better are the odds. I understand the orignal posters question....curiousity and wanting info on a specific model choice....all he sees here is arguing....not very productive.

I wonder how many of the people giving advice have ever been out of sight of land. Yes the sea can be a dangerous place but let me tell you, more often than not you could sail a hobie cat where ever you wanted to go. Reality is its not that rough out there....there are many many more days with no wind than there are of gale force winds. If weather windows and careful planning is used you could take just about any boat anywhere.
Hell the highways are a dangerous place, we all arent riding around in 18 wheelers to make sure we make it home each day....

Bottom line is all boats are blue water all boats are coastal just depends on where they are sailing.
More fodder for Murphy...

RT
PS At least something in the back of your head is telling you your boat is not ready for the Blue Water challenge. I guess there is hope for you and your crew....
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Old 19-11-2012, 05:36   #383
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

VT

Quote"Liferaft - maybe (ask Evans Starzinger). (Maybe? Go Blue water without a liferaft? (Did you come in on the short bus today?)"

Starzinger feels that many cruisers use valuable time to float the liferaft. That time would have been better spent saving the boat.

Evans Starzinger is a VERY experienced bluewater cruiser, and while I don't agree, he makes his case convincingly. So no, I didn't come in on the short bus today.

I don't believe it is possible to "Murphyproof" the world. Murphy's law says, "If it can go wrong, it will go wrong."

No matter what you do - there will always be something you forgot, didn't know, didn't figure into your calculations, or else Mama Nature decides to throw not the perfect storm at you, but the MOTHER OF ALL PERFECT STORMS at you. A storm so huge it has never been seen before.

The above is the reason I have said your comments are irrelevant. A good skipper does what he/she can. Sometimes, it is not enough. That is the risk we all live with. If we find that risk unacceptable (which apparently you do), then we shouldn't sail. Or at least not blue water.
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Old 19-11-2012, 06:36   #384
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I believe I smell a thread closing coming.
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Old 19-11-2012, 06:49   #385
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Maybe this will help:


From John Neal:

Hull Construction Material

1. Fiberglass, like any material, can vary greatly from one builder to the next. The majority of fiberglass boats were never designed or built for extended ocean sailing and may eventually fall apart if pressed into this type of service. The other extreme are some designs that are heavily built, overweight and do not have the sailing performance which makes for fast and comfortable passages. Pearson Vanguards, Tritons and Alberg 35's are examples of very well built, reasonably priced early fiberglass boats. After 35 years these boats are still going strong, and now worth more than the initial selling prices. The downside of purchasing most boats over 15 years old is that you may be looking at repowering, rerigging, new sails, rewiring and repainting. The initial low purchase price may not be a bargain in the long run when you add up all the costs of refitting and updating. As with any type of boat, it is absolutely necessary to have a fiberglass boat thoroughly surveyed before purchase.
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Old 19-11-2012, 07:21   #386
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I don't really think there is a neat definition. Perhaps the closest is whether a Boat is Bluewater passage ready (as that includes everything - including design, condition, equipment, crew and skipper).....and "ready" is for the folks getting onboard, not anyone else.

In regard to the 2012 Catalina 30, I would not automatically say no (as long as not straight from the crate - but that same as any boat)........ But I would not be jumping up and down to say yes either...........Another 10 foot would make me happier......but a lot of that also based on how enjoyable the voyage would be.

But in practice that won't ever be a concern for me - as my boat is better than "your" boat..........
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Old 19-11-2012, 09:34   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
I don't really think there is a neat definition. Perhaps the closest is whether a Boat is Bluewater passage ready (as that includes everything - including design, condition, equipment, crew and skipper).....and "ready" is for the folks getting onboard, not anyone else.

In regard to the 2012 Catalina 30, I would not automatically say no (as long as not straight from the crate - but that same as any boat)........ But I would not be jumping up and down to say yes either...........Another 10 foot would make me happier......but a lot of that also based on how enjoyable the voyage would be.

But in practice that won't ever be a concern for me - as my boat is better than "your" boat..........
DOJ makes a point that we too seldom consider, which is waterline. As a general rule, the greater the LWL, the more suitable the boat is for passages.

We see all those folks who make the Singlehanded Transpac in Moore 24s or Olson 30s, and tend to forget that the race is lovingly described as "A bug-light for weirdo's with boats." Yeah, it can be done in sport boats, but all the better to do it in a boat with three showers.

If I would have any misgivings about going to sea in a Catalina 315, it's that I've spent the past two+ decades sailing boats that are significantly larger. In the process of doing that, I've discovered that after a certain size green water on the deck becomes a rare phenomenon, and you no longer have to worry about being pooped. There's a certain security knowing there's enough diesel in the tank to motor through the doldrums for a week. My boat came standard with five water tanks, the largest of which holds 75 gallons. I can sail from here to Hawaii without having to switch over to salt-water flushing for the heads. Don't even think about trying that in a Catalina 315.

All boats need to be modified for offshore work, even if that work is merely coastal cruising. Have you seen any boats that come equipped with jacklines as a standard feature?

At the same time, it's goofy to specify certain features that all boats need to be considered "bluewater." For example, some might stipulate that a boat needs lee cloths in order to be considered worthy. But I don't carry lee cloths on my current boat because you simply don't need them in the aft cabins. There's literally no way to fall out of bed back there, and all you need to ensure sleep is to line the bulkheads with pillows. In offshore mode we transfer extra sails and spinnakers to the forward cabin and, guess what, it's then impossible to fall out of bed up there as well. (We tend not to use the forward cabin during passages because it's more comfy underway in the aft cabins, especially when going to weather. There again, it's nice to have a large enough boat that you have extra space where no one is sleeping.)
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Old 19-11-2012, 13:06   #388
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Even though people say "full keels behave this way and fin keels behave that way".....it is too broad to apply to all. "tracking" is not result entirely of the hull, balance of the rig is a major contributor. My heavy displacement full keel (as opposed to a "long keel" ) is responsive, in part due to the large area transom hung rudder with the deepest part of the keel at the base of the rudder post. The closer a fin keel boat tries to emulate a racer the more "squirrely" it gets. Some of them you can barely look down long enough to pick up your coffee with out going off course, the other extreme is being able to lash the tiller, go eat lunch....check on the course, go eat dinner, tell the next watch what the course is.....in a couple of days maybe fiddle with tiller (or adjust your balance when the wind changes with sail trim). When it comes to performance you can't just pick the good points of the type you like and say all compared to the bad points of the one you don't and say all. There are too many variable to accurately say all fin keel do this and all full keels do that
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Old 19-11-2012, 13:30   #389
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

When I sailed dinghies, the rule was simple, keep the hull under the rig!
Now I sail a Little Harbor, and guess what, the rule hasnt changed, so what boat achieves that end. The answer is, it depends where you are and what conditions can you expect? The solution is to overbuild, and in my humble opinion, Benetaus, and their close cousins are underbuilt, of course they will be sufficient until one day they are not! Spend a bit of money on overbuild!
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Old 19-11-2012, 13:59   #390
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Even that rule varies with different designs. Some boats you try to get them as flat as possible. My boat does best a 25degree heel (though she would prefer 30), addition of 800lbs ballast to the 3200lbs on the bottom of the keel did not make a significant difference, the only solution would be hiking boards and a much larger crew than I would like on my boat (trimming the sails enough bring it back to a "civilized heel" drops the speed about 30% and sailing with poorly trimmed sails is hard on the sails. The builder even named her "Roll N Go"of course my boat was designed 75 years ago when things were done differently. Even though it doesn't take much to get my boat over to 30 degrees, it takes alot to get it past that, as an experiment I sailed with main (37'luff/15'foot) and 180genny(39'luff/23'foot) in 15kts wind for 3 hours. Did 6.5kts at 40degree heel (rail under 3" of water) if a gust of wind pushed me over to 45degrees, the boat pivoted up into the wind.
Of course there are the "sailors" around here that when the wind gets up to 10 or 15 kts they all come scurrying in. For me 10-15 kts means a nice leisurely sail, I'm going hull speed without having to handle big sails......20kt winds is where it starts to get fun, 30 is exhilarating , 40 is when I start to get a little concerned (but is still a blast)
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