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Old 15-11-2012, 13:45   #286
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Ah! Well "bugger". I shall declare my post irrelevant then and get in first.

Anyway, i do not believe in Murphy's law at all, at all, at all. I am a firm believer though of O'Toole's law. He thought that Murphy was an optimist and should be ignored as irrelevant.

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Old 15-11-2012, 13:53   #287
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
vtcapo, Ive listened to your "murphy" nonsense, biting my lip, but really. Lets leave aside your Murphy comments. In general sailing is a very safe sport, its not even regarded as an extreme sport. Where I live everything is "high latitude" , even here insurance is cheap. Fact is Sailing is not a dangerous activity.

WORST CASE, sure sure, but the fact is you cant define WORST CASE, you just read about in books. Then you extrapolate that into your current design ( you do undertand that Slocum was lost at sea!, not to mention been ship wrecked several times!!! LOL), There are many NAs that will argue that Slocums Spray was no a ocean capable vessel!!

Let me tell you I have seen many sail in mid latitudes that were "ignorant" and unprepared, it is testimony to modern production boats. that such trips almost inevitably end successfully.



No as was pointed-out 2" bulletproof glass isnt any better then 1" if the design simply requires 1". Heavy isnt strong. Modern GRP boats are more then sufficient hull integrity ( as its proven by record) Most deck hardware is now mass manufactured by proven global players etc. Building or buying a boat with more"hull integrity" is wasteful, expensive and confers no additional befit. its also vodoo engineering , ie no facts just wishful thinking , (mind you please define that)Please just open you eyes and look around.



Constant reference to a mythical character to justify anything is just nonsense. An investigation into failure modes and what happens is far more useful. what this shows ( in general)

(a) Few fatalities or vessel loss at sea, are weather related

(b) Injuries/medical attention requiring extraction are most often caused by simple accidents on board or pre-existing conditions

(c) Keel and rudder failure has happened, but is a tiny percentage of designs afloat, almost always has an extenuating circumstance. Full keels, especially full keel GRP boats have as many problems as any other. Steel vessels also are not as strong as portrayed , especially steel leisure vessels.

(d) WORSE CASE, thats a "case" you cant determine, most likely when it comes, it will come from an area you didnt think off. ( Thats what makes it WORSE CASE). more then likely all your preparations will come to nought. You will then rely on your experience, your ability to solve problems and your common sense. Relying on "things" is foolish.



What a nonsense question, what does that mean . left brain , right brain, Everyone has booth sides. Why would I sail anywhere on a Asian boat , when I can have good german/french engineering!!!!!!.

Dave
Sorry Dave but you are wrong. Murphy was not a mythical character but was actually Captain Edward A. Murphy, an air force engineer who worked at Edwards AFB in the 1950s.

Other than that, right on.

Have you noticed that many of the proponents of heavy displacement, full keel boats are the ones who have read a lot of books but have never been sailing?

Wonder how many sea miles can be attributed to the many respondents to this thread contradicting the worst case scenario, fear of Murphy, sail in a tank theory?
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Old 15-11-2012, 14:12   #288
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

And the majority is always right. Right?
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Old 15-11-2012, 14:37   #289
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Sorry Dave but you are wrong. Murphy was not a mythical character but was actually Captain Edward A. Murphy, an air force engineer who worked at Edwards AFB in the 1950s.

Other than that, right on.

Have you noticed that many of the proponents of heavy displacement, full keel boats are the ones who have read a lot of books but have never been sailing?

Wonder how many sea miles can be attributed to the many respondents to this thread contradicting the worst case scenario, fear of Murphy, sail in a tank theory?
nope , see Reillys law ( funny how all these names are Irish!)
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Old 15-11-2012, 14:38   #290
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
And the majority is always right. Right?

when that majority is made up of people who've actually sailed "blue water" then yes
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Old 15-11-2012, 14:45   #291
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Ah! Well "bugger". I shall declare my post irrelevant then and get in first.

Anyway, i do not believe in Murphy's law at all, at all, at all. I am a firm believer though of O'Toole's law. He thought that Murphy was an optimist and should be ignored as irrelevant.

Coops.
Absoulety. For the sake of this thread Murphy is irrelevant.
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Old 15-11-2012, 14:50   #292
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Once again Don, consistent but irrelevant...

RT
As relevant as your question was! We all know the only relevant answer you will accept.

We all accept lots of the old tank boats will do fine out in the big blue. The thing is that you are never going to accept that a modern will also.

In looking at your CF body of work you look to be a 1 topic poster. You got any thing else to contribute to the masses here?
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Old 15-11-2012, 15:03   #293
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

In what conditions, for how long, and what kind of ride did they have when it got bumpy? It's a little more complicated than you're implying....and the majority is rarely right about anything.

There may also be a case for folks who spent more time boucing around in smaller boats in coastal chop might have an appreciation for what makes a seaworthy boat. It's not simply the height of the waves, it's the period and direction/s that're so dangerous. The motion of the boat in how it handles all this is important....and mass market production boats aren't meant for hardcore cruising, they're designed for fast cheap builds, quick sales, ongoing aftermarket sales, comfort at the mooring and speed in nice weather. This doesn't mean they can't cruise, but they'll need modifications, coddling and careful routing. This also doesn't mean the heavy fullkeeler is perfect foe everyone, it is just another compromise to do certain things. Being one who is diligently putting together a design for what I want to do, I'm not constrained by what's on the market (or already in my possession....), and I'm not one for fashions. I haven't got much blue water in my log but plenty of green and brown water, and I have a fine nose for discerning what experienced sailors are saying and what angle they are coming from. Since this is a thread about seaworthiness, those lacking in the department are going to put some effort into mollifying their consciences or those of them they seek to convert, for whichever reason personal or commercial.
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Old 15-11-2012, 15:51   #294
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
In what conditions, for how long, and what kind of ride did they have when it got bumpy? It's a little more complicated than you're implying....and the majority is rarely right about anything.

There may also be a case for folks who spent more time boucing around in smaller boats in coastal chop might have an appreciation for what makes a seaworthy boat. It's not simply the height of the waves, it's the period and direction/s that're so dangerous. The motion of the boat in how it handles all this is important....and mass market production boats aren't meant for hardcore cruising, they're designed for fast cheap builds, quick sales, ongoing aftermarket sales, comfort at the mooring and speed in nice weather. This doesn't mean they can't cruise, but they'll need modifications, coddling and careful routing. This also doesn't mean the heavy fullkeeler is perfect foe everyone, it is just another compromise to do certain things. Being one who is diligently putting together a design for what I want to do, I'm not constrained by what's on the market (or already in my possession....), and I'm not one for fashions. I haven't got much blue water in my log but plenty of green and brown water, and I have a fine nose for discerning what experienced sailors are saying and what angle they are coming from. Since this is a thread about seaworthiness, those lacking in the department are going to put some effort into mollifying their consciences or those of them they seek to convert, for whichever reason personal or commercial.
Although I tend to agree with some of the examples that have been debated in this thread, I feel there are some issues with what some people consider "Blue water capable."

I think of this like a magic carpet. There isn't such a thing. It's a mythological being we all dream of.

The Mayflower was proven to be blue water capable, but by today's standard would hardly be considered a viable vessel, much less a blue water capable boat.

Blue Water is some idealistic magical rating people put on something, that doesn't many anything, like a HP rating. HP is made up, it literally means nothing, with respect to the real world.

Now with that in mind, would I take a production boat into a Category 1 hurricane? Nope....absolutely not. I also wouldn't take a blue water boat into a Category 1 hurricane.

Any person who states, "the weather doesn't matter, my boat/vessel/yacht is blue water capable" is foolish. Do people with a production boat need to be more careful? Yes, without a doubt. Do people with a blue water cruiser need to be careful? Yes, without a doubt.

Mother nature doesn't care what your rating is. She will spank you like her beech if or when she gets ready, and she will not check your rating before doing so.

Are blue water boats more comfortable when the weather turns not so nice? I'm sure they are.

This is all about risk vs. reward. Everything about a boat is a compromise in some fashion or another.

The only boat truly blue water capable is a vessel you will take out in any weather with any pending forecast. You are the limiting factor of the rating not the boat itself.

The only true blue water boat, is a US Submarines Luxury Yacht. It doesn't care what the weather is. It can just about escape most anything Mother Nature can throw at it. Hard to sink a purposely sinkable boat.

James L
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Old 15-11-2012, 16:01   #295
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Originally Posted by noelex 77

Perhaps I misunderstanding, but I don't see your point.

Heavy displacement boats often have a long keel with shallow draft and the ability to hit an obstruction with less damage. I don't understand why you believe these are less suitable for coral waters.
If very shallow draft is required, which it is in some, but not in most coral waters, a swing keel monohul is generally superior to catamaran, having a shallower draft, better underwater protection and some warning.

Of course there are many other considerations in choosing the ideal boat , but I am puzzled by your proclamation that only a cat is suitable.
I wasn't serious, just pointing out that there are horses for courses, but what makes a boat perfect for one man might be totally different than someone else. We all weigh what we feel is important before we head off over the horizon, and my feeling is that we will not all agree on this because we all hold different things to be important. It is stupid in my mind to tell everyone they need a heavy full keel cruiser. There are a lot of bits of blue water and they are not all the same. For some blue water means seventy miles offshore and three days out, and for others it means two thousand miles and two weeks. In either case, the time of year, the destination etc. all play a role.
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Old 15-11-2012, 16:30   #296
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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In looking at your CF body of work you look to be a 1 topic poster. You got any thing else to contribute to the masses here?
Murphy's law says that he hasn't. O' Toole's however, says that he has. Sorry, could not help myself.

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Old 15-11-2012, 17:07   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engele
It is stupid in my mind to tell everyone they need a heavy full keel cruiser.
The French seem to think that the ideal blue water boat is a centre boarder.
Have a look at this:
http://www.sailworks.net/imram/
Purpose built for high latitude cruising...
Then there are boats like Allures, Boreal, Ovni, RM (not a center boarder, ok), all built by and for serious sailors. Sailors who wouldn't even look twice at a double ended long keeler...
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Old 15-11-2012, 17:19   #298
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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The French seem to think that the ideal blue water boat is a centre boarder.
Have a look at this:
The Imram Voyage : arctic sail adventure an mountain expedition to Greenland Iceland Jan Mayen Svalbard Spitzberg
Purpose built for high latitude cruising...
Then there are boats like Allures, Boreal, Ovni, RM (not a center boarder, ok), all built by and for serious sailors. Sailors who wouldn't even look twice at a double ended long keeler...
Oh, My head is spinning.
Just when I thought I was learning something.
So, would you sail off shore with a MacGreggor 26?
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Old 15-11-2012, 17:47   #299
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Originally Posted by micah719
In what conditions, for how long, and what kind of ride did they have when it got bumpy? It's a little more complicated than you're implying....and the majority is rarely right about anything.

There may also be a case for folks who spent more time boucing around in smaller boats in coastal chop might have an appreciation for what makes a seaworthy boat. It's not simply the height of the waves, it's the period and direction/s that're so dangerous. The motion of the boat in how it handles all this is important....and mass market production boats aren't meant for hardcore cruising, they're designed for fast cheap builds, quick sales, ongoing aftermarket sales, comfort at the mooring and speed in nice weather. This doesn't mean they can't cruise, but they'll need modifications, coddling and careful routing. This also doesn't mean the heavy fullkeeler is perfect foe everyone, it is just another compromise to do certain things. Being one who is diligently putting together a design for what I want to do, I'm not constrained by what's on the market (or already in my possession....), and I'm not one for fashions. I haven't got much blue water in my log but plenty of green and brown water, and I have a fine nose for discerning what experienced sailors are saying and what angle they are coming from. Since this is a thread about seaworthiness, those lacking in the department are going to put some effort into mollifying their consciences or those of them they seek to convert, for whichever reason personal or commercial.
I'm sorry but " hardcore cruising" what's that . Most production boats will put up with way more then a crew will handle. That's hardcore. To say that modern boats are cheap builds is nonsense. The cheap( er) ones are almost all achieved by large builders employing automation and economies of scale. Expensive isn't a quarantine of quality your Toyota has similar warranties as your Merc or BMW. A labour intensive interior lovingly hand assembles and finished ( I've been around the whole Halberg Rassy factory )is a thing of beauty, that rightfully costs much more to produce, bit it contributes little to the so called " bluewater " credentials. I've sailed many a stock production boat through some very nasty Northern European weather. It's only you realise how competent these modern boats are. Talk to others, like the French. They call the Amel an old mans boat. Look at the type of boats on the isle du soleil rallies. Really , take in the experience of others nations.

Full keepers were built primarily because they evolved from wooden designs, hydrodynamically its a very poor underwater shape with few redeeming factors. Modern computer designed underwater shapes , coupled with modern materials means they have gone the way of the dodo bird.

Dave
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Old 15-11-2012, 18:19   #300
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

GBN Let’s examine what you said, and this time I won’t be so kind.

>vtcapo, Ive listened to your "murphy" nonsense, biting my lip, but really. >Lets leave aside your Murphy comments. In general sailing is a very safe >sport, its not even regarded as an extreme sport. Where I live everything is >"high latitude" , even here insurance is cheap. Fact is Sailing is not a >dangerous activity.


Hmm…A very safe sport, not an extreme sport, not a dangerous activity? All relative to WHAT you sail and WHERE you sail it. Sailing in high and low latitudes IS a dangerous activity. I don’t think anyone would challenge that statement?

You are perfect fodder for Murphy.

>WORST CASE, sure sure, but the fact is you cant define WORST CASE, you >just read about in books. Then you extrapolate that into your current design >( you do undertand that Slocum was lost at sea!, not to mention been ship >wrecked several times!!! LOL), There are many NAs that will argue that >Slocums Spray was no a ocean capable vessel!!

Worst case can and has been defined, ‘yes’ in a book(s) revealing the first hand experiences of those who have come back from the brink. Dismiss their stories and what went wrong with their boats at your own peril.

Come on GBN, think of what you learned in your youth by just thumbing through Playboy or was it the Sears Catalogue? I bet you became an expert, even though there is something one handed Oops… one sided about the self taught.


>Let me tell you I have seen many sail in mid latitudes that were "ignorant" >and unprepared, it is testimony to modern production boats. that such trips >almost inevitably end successfully.

Since the Irish are starting to get a bad name for themselves here, lets just call that the Luck of the Irish.

Quote:
Ancient rulers when protecting their domain (and your boat is your domain in Blue Water) thought in terms of strategic conditions. Strategic conditions are castles surrounded by a mote, high ground, further protected by rivers, mountains and such that pose an obstacle to their enemy. When sailing Blue Water, Murphy is your enemy. Strategic conditions when sailing are hull integrity, (over better than under built), choosing quality over marginal hardware and gear. That includes a life raft of sufficient size for all on board. If you are not following this credo you are tempting fate.

>No as was pointed-out 2" bulletproof glass isnt any better then 1" if the >design simply requires 1". Heavy isnt strong. Modern GRP boats are more >then sufficient hull integrity ( as its proven by record) Most deck hardware >is now mass manufactured by proven global players etc. Building or buying >a boat with more"hull integrity" is wasteful, expensive and confers no >additional befit. its also vodoo engineering , ie no facts just wishful thinking >, (mind you please define that)Please just open you eyes and look around.

With regard to Strategic Conditions, here are some ancient words of wisdom. Take them for what they're worth.

“Kings and Dukes provide themselves with strategic conditions to protect their states. States rely on strategic conditions to protect themselves. The conclusion is that NOTHING can do without strategic conditions. (and this is key) When the time comes for strategic conditions to play their role, their usefulness is in deed great! It is not a matter of using them on a regular basis, but their use comes into play when the time demands it.”

I Ching Hexagram 29 The Abysmal Water

As to whether you need one or two inches?…… Tell that to your wife as you are both going down to meet Davey Jones, you crying “but they said I only needed 1”! wife “Are you f*cking kidding me!!! I always told you you needed an extra inch!!!!”….. blurp, blurp, blurp orrr blurp bubble twoooooooooooooooooo…..blurp bubble… blurp…zzzz....


>Constant reference to a mythical character to justify anything is just >nonsense.

If you are talking religion, I agree. If you are talking Murphy you are mistaken. Murphy isn’t a mythical character. Murphy is YOU.
Murphy is that voice in the back your head that creeps up on you in the middle of the night as you swing at anchor having you question whether or not you put out enough scope. Murphy is that feeling in your gut that tells you something is not right and puts YOU on deck while everyone else sleeps.

Ignore Murphy and he will show up in person.

>What a nonsense question, what does that mean . left brain , right brain, >Everyone has booth sides. Why would I sail anywhere on a Asian boat , >when I can have good german/french engineering!!!!!!.

I drive Asian cars and sail an Asian built boat. Asian cars speak for themselves. Asian boats have a reputation all their own. As far as German and French is concerned,.... that’s my taste in women.

RT
PS My wife is German French Canadian and well engineered... if you know what I mean...
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