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Old 14-11-2012, 07:48   #256
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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior
I have heard that every serious climber has friends or acquaintances that have died climbing. I can't say that for myself about sailing.

That said, I still want to have good equipment and preparation in orderto increase my margin of survivability.
Not going to lie, I haven't read this whole thread... but I do know a bit about climbing accidents and saying as there's now a comparison I feel I should chime in.

All climbers will tell you that most of the accidents happen when coming down... not during the climb. It's because you relax, you think the hard part is over, you're in a sort of celebration mode, and you ease up.

One very famous accident (in the climbing world that is) involves a world class climber doing a climb that was well within her abilities. She got distracted while she was tieing in, and never completed her knot. Got to the top (it was a single pitch), called for the belayer to tighten up, she relaxed, let the belay take her load, knot came undone and she hit the ground! She's alive and climbing but fully acknowledges it was her distraction that caused the accident.

Most of the climbers I know who have been injured have happened on a trail, or some steps... and not climbing.

Interestingly, my health insurance covers me for all climbing related accidents, but not for scuba diving at all.

Take from this what you will.
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Old 14-11-2012, 10:58   #257
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

VT

Given your attitude, what do you do to guard against dying in bed? That's where most people in the western world die.

Or don't you think Murphy comes by there?
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Old 14-11-2012, 11:32   #258
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
VT

Given your attitude, what do you do to guard against dying in bed? That's where most people in the western world die.

Or don't you think Murphy comes by there?
Funny you should ask. A regular of mine comes into the restaurant I used to manage years ago with his head all bandaged, battered and bruised and I mean, totally f*cked up! He was an older guy who had an arrangement with a younger gal that he knocked up. In exchange for child support he would make weekly booty calls for compensation. Well, she had enough of that and one evening while he slept she took a pair of 8” stiletto’s and performed a tap dance on his head.

I have a younger wife and ever since I bought the Slocum without her permission, I've been hiding her stilettos each night…

RT
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Old 14-11-2012, 12:51   #259
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

"Death by stilettos" Hmmmmmm. Raymond Chandler? Rex Stout?
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Old 14-11-2012, 13:44   #260
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Re: Death by stilletos

I've had my share of women and maybe someone else's share too. But I'm older and wiser and balder now. You know what they say about if it has (excuse me, ladies) t*ts or tires it'll let you down. So for me, instant turnoffs are makeup, fancy nails, high heels, hair spray, wearing an actual dress ...

Shorts and Ts and flip flops please. 's all I wear. I've been to my last funeral and tossed those "nice" clothes. I hope to die in bed with a smile. Throw me overboard on the outgoing tide. Thank you.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled debate: Slocum v. Catalina.
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Old 14-11-2012, 14:01   #261
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I wonder how some of the posters feel about catamarans far as "bluewater" as they don't seem to meet any of the "the boat must have X" far as design and build.
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Old 14-11-2012, 14:35   #262
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I wonder how some of the posters feel about catamarans far as "bluewater" as they don't seem to meet any of the "the boat must have X" far as design and build.
Just as monohull design has moved on from Slocoms so too have catamarans. There are bluewater catamaran designs available.

There are plenty that have been RTW, in the ARC and also quite a few that have sailed NZ to Patagonia. Now that a stretch of water that is without doubt Bluewater.
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Old 14-11-2012, 19:36   #263
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Anywhere? Riiiight. And the reason why you sail a 50 footer, big budget or big family?

PS It wouldn't be that you feel more secure would it?
A Santana 22 is a bit small for me. I have the 50 because it is fun to sail. Sails like a dinghy, singlehanded, actually. And it is not a furniture wagon but not striped out either. Also she's very stable in a seaway - no pitching and comfortable rolling. Not expensive, actually, 30 years old.

Definitely Blue Water capable. But some might say no. Would probably survive being dragged all the way across a sea broached under a flogging spinnaker - as more than one TransPac racer has attempted.

There's only two of us now. Was only one for quite a while. 8 bunks though.
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Old 14-11-2012, 19:41   #264
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
I have heard that every serious climber has friends or acquaintances that have died climbing. I can't say that for myself about sailing.
I am looking back on > 30 years of mountain climbing and hundreds of summits under my belt, mainly in the European Alps, but also some in the south american Andes. Four of my former climbing partners have died in the mountains: falling into a crevasse, falling from a cliff, loosing a hold, stepping on a loose rock. Others, including myself, survived almost fatal accidents. Compared to mountain climbing sailing is like a walk in the park.
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Old 14-11-2012, 20:28   #265
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Originally Posted by Bash

Actually, I think the opposite is true.

It's been a longstanding concern on this site that newbies don't walk away with bad advice without realizing any better. Almost every day someone posts something absolutely contrary to best practices. For example, on a current thread on sea trials someone just recommended that the transmission be shifted from full forward to full reverse "as quickly as possible." That's a recipe for disaster, a way to ruin a perfectly good drive train. That kind of advice needs to be corrected before someone tries it at home...

...Those are great conversations to have. Contributions to bluewater paranoia are not.
Well put Bash.

It is frustrating to me how many people will chip in with an opinion and then later profess their inexperience. If they don't have the personal experience and expertise why enter the discussion at all? Sit back read and learn something.

Bash, you are bolder than me. I try to weigh in and then cautiously step out of a lot of discussions when I see that armchairs outnumber helms. When it comes down to it though, after several thousand miles down the Pacific Coast, through the canal and the islands off of Panama, my personal take on the original question is that there are a LOT of Catalina and similar boats out here. They far outnumber the full keel, heavy cruisers, and we have repaired more on our old heavy cruiser than our friends on similarly valued newer lighter boats.

I would argue that the biggest risks to our safety have been engine and transmission failures that are far more common on boats with higher hours or sloppy repowers.

A new Island Packet is likely out of the budget of a person looking at a Catalina, and a newer Catalina is likely less failure prone (including things like breaking steering cables, bad cutlass bearings, etc.) than an older Island Packet (one old enough to negate the price difference).

Are there any heavy displacement budget built boats even built anymore?
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Old 15-11-2012, 03:53   #266
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I'll come rescue you if you get in the ****. That's what the shithouses were designed for...but don't get too far ahead of me.

RT
The chance that I end up under a bus is higher than the chance that I get in to a bad situation while sailing. I don't think I'll be needing you...
Why should I be uncomfortable while sailing in order to reduce an already extremely low probability of mishap by another millionth of a percent point.
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Old 15-11-2012, 06:22   #267
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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The chance that I end up under a bus is higher than the chance that I get in to a bad situation while sailing. I don't think I'll be needing you...
Why should I be uncomfortable while sailing in order to reduce an already extremely low probability of mishap by another millionth of a percent point.
Why, because we are talking Blue Water not a walk around the block. There is no one out there to help you (at least immediately) in case of an emergency. This is Murphy’s hunting ground for the ill prepared and ignorant. This is why all considerations regarding hull integrity, hardware, various gear and electronics installed on my boat will be purchased with WORST CASE in mind.

Ancient rulers when protecting their domain (and your boat is your domain in Blue Water) thought in terms of strategic conditions. Strategic conditions are castles surrounded by a mote, high ground, further protected by rivers, mountains and such that pose an obstacle to their enemy. When sailing Blue Water, Murphy is your enemy. Strategic conditions when sailing are hull integrity, (over better than under built), choosing quality over marginal hardware and gear. That includes a life raft of sufficient size for all on board. If you are not following this credo you are tempting fate.

What we have here is a very simple solution to an important question. The solution hinges upon you recognizing your boats limitations and correcting them. That done you should be able, based on your own sailing experience successfully meet the challenge of Blue Water Sailing. To think you are immune from Murphy’s wrath because statistics show otherwise is wishful thinking at best. And I am being kind.

So let me pose a hypothetical question to this most experienced group. You are in New Zealand and have the opportunity to sail to Hawaii on for arguments sake, two Tayana 37’s. One fitted out by a left brainer the other by a right brainer. Both skippers are equally experienced, amiable and physically capable. Which boat do you choose?

RT
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Old 15-11-2012, 06:52   #268
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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So let me pose a hypothetical question to this most experienced group. You are in New Zealand and have the opportunity to sail to Hawaii on for arguments sake, two Tayana 37’s. One fitted out by a left brainer the other by a right brainer. Both skippers are equally experienced, amiable and physically capable. Which boat do you choose?

RT
This is easy! Given the choice of 2 different boats each skippered by people with half a brain; I would take a pass on the "opportunity" and not go!
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Old 15-11-2012, 07:13   #269
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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The chance that I end up under a bus is higher than the chance that I get in to a bad situation while sailing. I don't think I'll be needing you...
Why should I be uncomfortable while sailing in order to reduce an already extremely low probability of mishap by another millionth of a percent point.
How does the 3 or 4 boats that were abandoned and one death off of the northeast coast of the USA last fall factor into your statistics? Assume a 100 or 200 boats heading south on that route. A lost or crippled boat is not all that uncommon on that route.
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Old 15-11-2012, 07:19   #270
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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This is easy! Given the choice of 2 different boats each skippered by people with half a brain; I would take a pass on the "opportunity" and not go!
Once again Don, consistent but irrelevant...

RT
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