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Old 13-11-2012, 13:25   #241
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by dsmastern View Post
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone given an absolute definition of "blue water?"

Is this discussion about the lovely shades of blue water of the Caribbean, or is it about the blue water of Cape Horn?

Different conditions....different extremes....different boats....different equipment.

Dave and Mindy Bolduc cruise around the Bahamas on a sub 14' boat for months at a time, but would never think of taking it around the horn. It is capable for the blue water they cruise in.

So, again, what is Blue Water as it pertains to this discussion?

I did pose the same question earlier and sort of gave a general answer. Blue water is XX number of miles or days from an accessible, safe port. So let me pick some numbers and see if anyone agrees.

First let's separate blue water sailing from high latitude sailing. 40 degrees is often mentioned but I suggest anything north or south of 35 degrees could be considered high latitude sailing.

Then let's say blue water sailing is anything that is more than 3 days from a safe, all weather accessible harbor. I think 3 days is short enough that one could be 99% certain of a safe weather window with today's forecasting technology.

By this definition some areas of the west coast could be considered blue water sailing even within a few miles of land since there are areas where the harbors are river mouths with a bar to cross that will be inaccessible in high surf conditions.

Anyone have an alternate definition please jump right in.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:27   #242
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

The definite answer on blue water:

#1 Do you have the cahones and brains necessary to cross an ocean with it?

#2 If you do, consider it a blue water boat, even if it is a bathtub.

#3 If not, keep looking at better (and/or bigger) designs until you match #1.

James L
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:33   #243
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
......
Sometimes being at anchor can be the scariest part of a cruise!
+1
In fact the only times I have felt any real fear at sea have been at anchor!
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:48   #244
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Actually, I think the opposite is true.

It's been a longstanding concern on this site that newbies don't walk away with bad advice without realizing any better. Almost every day someone posts something absolutely contrary to best practices. For example, on a current thread on sea trials someone just recommended that the transmission be shifted from full forward to full reverse "as quickly as possible." That's a recipe for disaster, a way to ruin a perfectly good drive train. That kind of advice needs to be corrected before someone tries it at home.

Wrong is wrong, and your observations about the danger of opening portholes for bluewater cruising was absolutely contrary to best practices and design. You saw the number of people on this thread who mentioned their agreement to my questioning of your position in a "+1" way, but what you didn't see is that four people sent me PMs by hitting the thank-you button for setting the record straight on opening ports.

There are plenty of areas where we can legitimately argue about best practices for offshore cruisers. For example, someone terribly old-school might argue that boats without mast pulpits are unsafe because there's no way to brace when putting in a reef. I might argue that with a modern design where all lines lead aft there's no reason for many of us to go forward to reef or to douse. If my boat doesn't have a winch on the mast, why would I need a mast pulpit?

Those are great conversations to have. Contributions to bluewater paranoia are not.
Very well put. In my experience newbies that come to this forum with serious questions and displaying even the slightest evidence that they have put even a minor amount of thought into the idea of going sailing receive warm and supportive answers, even to the most basic and naive questions. OK I have seen a couple of exceptions but also most of the time another member jumps in to correct a less than polite response to the OP's question.

The newbies that come up with some version of "I have never been sailing but I have $15,000 and want to buy a blue water cruiser and leave FL for the the South Seas in 4 weeks with my wife and infant daughter" I think are just as welcome but their plans are not supported. So is it considered inhospitable to politely but very definitely inform someone that their plan is unrealistic and probably dangerous?

To be perfectly honest I do have to figuratively bite my tongue when a new member comes on with their first post and asks something that has been asked and answered a thousand times, probably a couple of times in the previous week. I try to politely refer them to one of the 10-20 threads on the exact same subject but I'm sure the annoyance shows through occasionally. I promise to try harder to be nice.
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Old 13-11-2012, 14:14   #245
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmastern View Post
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone given an absolute definition of "blue water?"

Is this discussion about the lovely shades of blue water of the Caribbean, or is it about the blue water of Cape Horn?

Different conditions....different extremes....different boats....different equipment.

Dave and Mindy Bolduc cruise around the Bahamas on a sub 14' boat for months at a time, but would never think of taking it around the horn. It is capable for the blue water they cruise in.

So, again, what is Blue Water as it pertains to this discussion?

I'm 5'8" aaaa.... 5'9"?
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Old 13-11-2012, 15:09   #246
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Originally Posted by vtcapo
I don’t know who comprised that poll about sailing and golf but don’t believe it, unless you are of the same ilk as those who believed the Republican pre-election polls. I remember an interview with world-class mountain climbers some of which were avid sailors and all mentioned that next to climbing, Blue Water sailing is as potentially dangerous and challenging.
So mountaineering is about as safe as playing golf? Sounds about right...

In the end the statistics matter: how many people get killed or injured, how many boats get lost. I keep on hearing that more boats sink in the marina than at sea, and at one of the most common causes is fire...
And the stats tell us sailing is safe, certainly when compared to other activities generally considered safe too.

But I'll also chip in and notice a bit of cultural differences here. If you we're on a French forum and asked whether an RM 1060 was a proper blue water boat you would get 100% agreement. Yet this boat has all the features you dislike but I find it one of the most beautiful yachts currently on the market...
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Old 13-11-2012, 19:06   #247
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
So mountaineering is about as safe as playing golf? Sounds about right...

In the end the statistics matter: how many people get killed or injured, how many boats get lost. I keep on hearing that more boats sink in the marina than at sea, and at one of the most common causes is fire...
And the stats tell us sailing is safe, certainly when compared to other activities generally considered safe too.

But I'll also chip in and notice a bit of cultural differences here. If you we're on a French forum and asked whether an RM 1060 was a proper blue water boat you would get 100% agreement. Yet this boat has all the features you dislike but I find it one of the most beautiful yachts currently on the market...
Murphy doesn't care about statistics and I believe in Murphy. Your RM 1060 is a rocket sled and obviously not my cup of tea fitting in that 2nd category I described. She's a bit too radical, quite light for my tastes and for over 200K .... Hell, If I could afford that I'd be in Brick Shithouse heaven knowing I'd have the pick of the litter.....

RT
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Old 13-11-2012, 20:18   #248
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

WOW
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Old 13-11-2012, 20:52   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtcapo

Murphy doesn't care about statistics and I believe in Murphy. Your RM 1060 is a rocket sled and obviously not my cup of tea fitting in that 2nd category I described. She's a bit too radical, quite light for my tastes and for over 200K .... Hell, If I could afford that I'd be in Brick Shithouse heaven knowing I'd have the pick of the litter.....

RT
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Old 14-11-2012, 01:30   #250
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

VT

"I don’t know who comprised that poll about sailing and golf but don’t believe it"f

Apparently you didn't read my post nor did you bother to look up the link. The golf/bluewater comparison was not a poll. It is the insurance industries rank of sports based on the incidence of injuries requiring medical attention. If my memory serves me correctly, for every 1 million hours of golf, there are 37 incidences requiring medical attention. For blue water the number is 42, for bicycling the number was 50 something and for himalayan mountain climbing it was around 124,000 (incidences for every 1 million hours the sport is pursued.)

But if you want a "brick shithouse", then a heavy steel boat, with small sails should do the trick for you
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Old 14-11-2012, 04:07   #251
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Blue Water could be a lake. In my opinion it means you are on your own. Shelter or rescue when something goes bad are not assured in any way.

I really don't think it is really the boat that determines the fitness. It's the preparation. A properly fitted Santana 22 could go anywhere (or more) the popular arm-chair judged Blue Water cruiser could go. I wouldn't risk a crossing on many of the ill-prepared boats I have seen, but there they are in remote places, junk piled on rotting decks under rotting rigging, tomato plants on the rail, 30 year old sails, having the time of their lives while the CLODs yak about it on CF.
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Old 14-11-2012, 04:50   #252
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I'll wave when I overtake you...
I'll come rescue you if you get in the ****. That's what the shithouses were designed for...but don't get too far ahead of me.

RT
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Old 14-11-2012, 05:03   #253
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Blue Water could be a lake. In my opinion it means you are on your own. Shelter or rescue when something goes bad are not assured in any way.

I really don't think it is really the boat that determines the fitness. It's the preparation. A properly fitted Santana 22 could go anywhere (or more) the popular arm-chair judged Blue Water cruiser could go. I wouldn't risk a crossing on many of the ill-prepared boats I have seen, but there they are in remote places, junk piled on rotting decks under rotting rigging, tomato plants on the rail, 30 year old sails, having the time of their lives while the CLODs yak about it on CF.
Anywhere? Riiiight. And the reason why you sail a 50 footer, big budget or big family?

RT
PS It wouldn't be that you feel more secure would it?
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Old 14-11-2012, 05:10   #254
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
VT

"I don’t know who comprised that poll about sailing and golf but don’t believe it"f

Apparently you didn't read my post nor did you bother to look up the link. The golf/bluewater comparison was not a poll. It is the insurance industries rank of sports based on the incidence of injuries requiring medical attention. If my memory serves me correctly, for every 1 million hours of golf, there are 37 incidences requiring medical attention. For blue water the number is 42, for bicycling the number was 50 something and for himalayan mountain climbing it was around 124,000 (incidences for every 1 million hours the sport is pursued.)

But if you want a "brick shithouse", then a heavy steel boat, with small sails should do the trick for you
Ooops...But I think the climbers have it right considering what ultimate risks are involved. BTW, Murphy laughs in the face of statistics.

What's that.....do you hear it? It's Murphy laughing at your insurance rankings right now. Bawhahahahahaha............

RT
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Old 14-11-2012, 07:35   #255
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I have heard that every serious climber has friends or acquaintances that have died climbing. I can't say that for myself about sailing.

That said, I still want to have good equipment and preparation in orderto increase my margin of survivability.
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