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Old 13-11-2012, 09:38   #226
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
And THERE's the evidence that at least for some people, newer sailors and boat owners aren't fully welcome here.
Actually, I think the opposite is true.

It's been a longstanding concern on this site that newbies don't walk away with bad advice without realizing any better. Almost every day someone posts something absolutely contrary to best practices. For example, on a current thread on sea trials someone just recommended that the transmission be shifted from full forward to full reverse "as quickly as possible." That's a recipe for disaster, a way to ruin a perfectly good drive train. That kind of advice needs to be corrected before someone tries it at home.

Wrong is wrong, and your observations about the danger of opening portholes for bluewater cruising was absolutely contrary to best practices and design. You saw the number of people on this thread who mentioned their agreement to my questioning of your position in a "+1" way, but what you didn't see is that four people sent me PMs by hitting the thank-you button for setting the record straight on opening ports.

There are plenty of areas where we can legitimately argue about best practices for offshore cruisers. For example, someone terribly old-school might argue that boats without mast pulpits are unsafe because there's no way to brace when putting in a reef. I might argue that with a modern design where all lines lead aft there's no reason for many of us to go forward to reef or to douse. If my boat doesn't have a winch on the mast, why would I need a mast pulpit?

Those are great conversations to have. Contributions to bluewater paranoia are not.
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Old 13-11-2012, 09:39   #227
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

A true Blue Water capable cruiser that is also pirate proof!
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Old 13-11-2012, 10:24   #228
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

There seems to be three schools of thought here. Those of you who with careless disregard for you and your crew’s safety think you can get on any stock boat and just go Blue Water. An offshoot of this are those who profess to have no fear of the sea and those who think based on someone’s poll that going Blue Water is as safe as golf. These are the type of sailors I wouldn’t trust to take me across my canal. They are also the ones whose opinions concerning seaworthiness should be dismissed outright.


I don’t know who comprised that poll about sailing and golf but don’t believe it, unless you are of the same ilk as those who believed the Republican pre-election polls. I remember an interview with world-class mountain climbers some of which were avid sailors and all mentioned that next to climbing, water sailing">Blue Water sailing is as potentially dangerous and challenging. Newbie’s don’t kid yourself, if you are ever caught out in the **** you want a boat that can safely get you though.


The second group are those who believe that the art of boat design has not regressed as Marchaj has suggested and light weight fin keel, spade rudder boats are as safe as the older tried and true full keel with protected rudder boats for Blue Water. I will concede that our Moderator has a valid argument, has more experience than I and based on those that have managed repeatedly to cross over, validate his analysis. But the need to take another rudder somehow tells me something is wrong with that equation.

The 3rd group to which I belong are old timers (I’m 65) whose offshore experience has been enough to know how bad the **** can get and choose to sacrifice speed and performance for a brick **** house that is more forgiving and comfortable in a seaway. I can live with the fact that I may get there a day or two behind you. But then again it’s not in getting there, it is in the going.

However, I think the greatest point of contention is what role the Skipper plays in all this. The Skipper in my opinion IS an essential part of the equation but as I said, "after the fact". After one has done what is necessary to insure that his or her boat is up to Blue Water standards it is the Skipper that creates the synergy, a melding so to speak of Boat and Biology.

As a Newbie knowing one’s limitations and skill level is essential in making an educated choice. Choose wisely….

RT
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Old 13-11-2012, 10:35   #229
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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But the need to take another rudder somehow tells me something is wrong with that equation.
I also carry spare fan belts, spare sails, a spare GPS, a spare VHF, a spare....

Why not a rudder?
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Old 13-11-2012, 11:31   #230
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I also carry spare fan belts, spare sails, a spare GPS, a spare VHF, a spare....

Why not a rudder?
I bought a boat that had come back from cruising completely off grid in the south Pacific. It came with spare everything*, even a second "emergency tiller" made from 2" steel pipe. I can't see why I'd break two wooden tillers, so I figure if I'm ever approached by pirates in a panga, I'll toss that thing aboard their boat and the sheer weight of it will sink them... if I can get it out of the locker without a boom crane...

I don't have much experience, but the admiral and I hit some not so fun stuff in our Catalina 30 a few years ago after I looked at the weather forecast and not the bouys along our track (learned something). When we got to calmer water we both looked at each other and dropped that line from Jaws: "we're gonna need a bigger boat!"

I also disagree that these threads are worthless. I tend to find a nugget or two of good information, at least, from each one. And I'm entertained. And I'm reminded that I shouldn't hit submit very often, probably even this time...

JRM

* I mean everything. Not just the usual, but stuff like a spare injector pump, a spare injector for each cylinder, spare steel fuel lines, I even found a spare starter motor hiding at the very back of a compartment. The only thing I want that I haven't found yet (and I stress yet) is a spare heat exchanger, so I can swap it out and boil the current one. But what can I say, it's not just a boat, it's a treasure hunt!
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Old 13-11-2012, 11:42   #231
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Originally Posted by JRM View Post

* I mean everything. Not just the usual, but stuff like a spare injector pump, a spare injector for each cylinder, spare steel fuel lines, I even found a spare starter motor hiding at the very back of a compartment. The only thing I want that I haven't found yet (and I stress yet) is a spare heat exchanger, so I can swap it out and boil the current one. But what can I say, it's not just a boat, it's a treasure hunt!
Its not that stupid. I have needed all those parts you have listed within the last 5 years (apart from the fuel lines, I guess that will be next) including your yet to found heat exchanger.
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Old 13-11-2012, 11:43   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRM

* I mean everything. Not just the usual, but stuff like a spare injector pump, a spare injector for each cylinder, spare steel fuel lines, I even found a spare starter motor hiding at the very back of a compartment. The only thing I want that I haven't found yet (and I stress yet) is a spare heat exchanger, so I can swap it out and boil the current one. But what can I say, it's not just a boat, it's a treasure hunt!
I'm embarrassed then cause e list above doesn't even start to cover my spare list...

Just on the engine in addition to the list above;

Spare cylinder
Spare piston
Rocking arms
Pushrods
Two rods
Valves
Injector pump
Water pump
Push pull cable
Numerous bearings and sleeves

And on and on...
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Old 13-11-2012, 11:55   #233
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Having just sailed my 2003 Catalina 42 from California across the Pacific to Bundaberg, Queensland I would tend to disagree with Cheechako.

I find the boat to be comfortable,stiff, fast and capable in weather....40 kt gale, 24hrs, beam reaching doing 8kts....good enough for me!

As said, I didnt say it cant be done. I like Catalinas for what they are. I've charter captained a fews 42's. Compared with my Taiwan built boats, the Cat 42 pounded, flexed and shook the rig etc in 20-25 wind and 3-6 ft seas to weather. Does it matter, not really.
OTOH, one of my Cat 42 charter groups hit a rock at 5 knots. The hull cracked forward and aft of the keel, the engine bed came loose as did some of the cabinetry. Big repair job. I bounced my Passport 47 through a pass at speed with no damage but keel scrapes. just sayin'...there is a difference, it's up to the user.
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:12   #234
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I think one thing underestimated by new cruisers is the difficulty in getting spare parts in out of the way places.
The approximate steps are.
Find the part on the Internet
Get a postal adress
Pay for part.
Receive email it's out of stock
Your PayPal or credit card account don't match the postal adress.
Reasure the supplier you are a genuine even though said adresses don't match
Catch a bus, taxi, or walk for a couple of hours to collect the package.
No one speaks your language.
The package has been sent to a different courier / postal office.
Strikes, ferry stoppages.
There are customs, duties, or bribes to pay.

The best principal is to install the best eqipment possible, be able to manage with minimal systems and have backups for everything that is vital. If something breaks, a month, or couple of months is typicall replacement timeframe in out of the way places. Make sure you are not spending the best cruising time and weather, waiting for the vital generator part.
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:50   #235
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone given an absolute definition of "blue water?"

Is this discussion about the lovely shades of blue water of the Caribbean, or is it about the blue water of Cape Horn?

Different conditions....different extremes....different boats....different equipment.

Dave and Mindy Bolduc cruise around the Bahamas on a sub 14' boat for months at a time, but would never think of taking it around the horn. It is capable for the blue water they cruise in.

So, again, what is Blue Water as it pertains to this discussion?

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Old 13-11-2012, 12:55   #236
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Even though crossing the gulf stream can be a nightmare i would personally consider a passage fromflorida to the bahamas coastal cruising and cruising within the bahamas is also coastal.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:06   #237
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Even though crossing the gulf stream can be a nightmare i would personally consider a passage fromflorida to the bahamas coastal cruising and cruising within the bahamas is also coastal.
OK, so is there an absolute description of blue water yet?

The North Sea is close to "coastal" for some, but can be severe.

Is there a way to define blue water for this discussion?

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Old 13-11-2012, 13:14   #238
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Bluewater is a bit of a misnomer as there are long passages thay are less diffict than some short coastal trips.

My guess at the intent of "bluewater" for discussion purposes is any passage that is long enough or remote enough that help or escape is not ready available and therefore the skills of the crew or the capabilities of the boat are the only options one has to extricate oneself from a given situation like bad weather or a collision.

What constitutes the above would probably be different for every sailor.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:21   #239
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I don't know if there is a suitable definition of " bluewater"
Offshore, away from rescue services is one definition, or sailing outside the range of reliable weather forecasts, another is distance from a safe harbour. These definitions fail to include say Sydney to Hobart which I would classify as blue water even though it meets none of the above definitions.

A prudent skipper rates the performance of his crew, vessel and safety equipment against the possible challenges.
Personally I have been far more scared sailing in conditions that would not fit the strict definition of blue water.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:25   #240
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Quote:
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Personally I have been far more scared sailing in conditions that would not fit the definition of blue water.
+++1

Sometimes being at anchor can be the scariest part of a cruise!
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